Public Safety Committee on May 13th, 2010

[Charles Momy]

There is one association that represents six smaller associations in Saskatchewan.

[Mark Holland, Liberal, Ajax—Pickering, ON]

So it's six associations.

Detective Constable Teeft, you said in your presentation that domestically sourced firearms are a problem. Can you expand on that? How big an issue are guns coming from domestic sources that end up in the hands of criminals? May I have a brief answer?

[Det Nadine Teeft]

In Toronto for the last three years, the statistics show that 50% of all our crime guns, all firearms, were domestically sourced. Domestically sourced usually means the majority of those guns are from residential entries, not necessarily from Toronto but from across Canada. Those guns have been sourced back to Canada, and they are a problem. It has been 50%, give or take 3%, over the last three years, so it has remained consistent at 50%. The registry is assisting with regard to enforcement to ensure compliance.

[Mark Holland, Liberal, Ajax—Pickering, ON]

Mr. Rich, you've heard from the Canadian Police Association, you've heard from the detective constable, and I'm sure you've heard the position of the Canadian Chiefs of Police, who say this is an extremely important tool--one of many--in public safety.

Given that the Auditor General and the RCMP have told us that this program costs $4.1 million a year, and given the position of such an overwhelming preponderance of your colleagues--in fact, of over 430 chiefs of police, you're one of three, I believe, who have come out against the registry--would you then not agree that if so many people think it's so vital to do their job and it costs $4.1 million a year, we should be focusing on trying to make the system better? Do you favour scrapping the system or fixing it? Can you clarify that for me?

[Chief Bob Rich]

I always struggle a bit with the way we say that all the police are supporting it. I sent an email to my colleagues in the province and got some quiet emails back from some RCMP leaders who wouldn't want their comments about their concerns with the registry repeated, so people in my world are asked to line up as well. There are, at various levels, people struggling with their support of it.

[Mark Holland, Liberal, Ajax—Pickering, ON]

I don't mean to interrupt, but I'm tight on time. Could I just ask you whether you favour scrapping it or fixing it? It's just a quick question, because I have to go on.

If the overwhelming number of people who represent these associations at the very least say they need it, for $4.1 million does it make sense to scrap it, or should we be focusing instead on your comments about the need to improve it?

[Chief Bob Rich]

You won't fix it for $4.1 million. Yes, I'm in favour of Canadians trying to fix it before we scrap it, but it's going to cost more than that.

[Mark Holland, Liberal, Ajax—Pickering, ON]

Mr. Drummond, I'm going to quote you. This is something you said recently:

As a rural emergency physician and coroner, I can safely say that I’ve never seen a handgun injury. I have, however, seen my share of injuries and deaths inflicted by rifles and shotguns... Gun-related injury is not just a Toronto problem that involves gangs. It has occurred in my small idyllic rural community and involved people that would otherwise seem quite normal. Registration of firearms is important to ensure accountability and compliance with safe storage.

Can you expand on that? As somebody coming from a rural community, do you yourself, Dr. Drummond, also have a firearms licence?

[Dr. Alan Drummond]

Yes, I do. I have a .22 and a 12 gauge shotgun. I live on about 12 acres on the water, and it's largely used for critter control, although the critters have nothing to fear from me. My son is a bowhunter, so that's not really an issue.

I can tell you that I grew up in Montreal, spent time in Vancouver, and was in the Canadian army; I saw far more firearm-related injuries in my life in agricultural Perth over the years. Certainly shotguns and rifles were a predominant weapon. They were the weapon. I've never seen a handgun injury in my 30 years in medicine.

[The Chair, Conservative, Garry Breitkreuz]

Thank you very much.

We'll now go to Ms. Mourani, please.

[Maria Mourani, Bloc, Ahuntsic, QC]

Thank you all for being here.

Mr. Rahilly, I wanted to congratulate you on your speech, which I feel was very focused and brought us back to the real issues.

But my question goes to Mr. Rich.

Mr. Rich, you want improvements to the registry. You say that it is going to cost more, but you want the improvements. You do not seem to want to toss the register in the garbage. You would rather try to improve it.

If I understood correctly, you talked about decriminalizing law-abiding hunters. You say that more and more people are considered criminals because they have not registered their guns. You mentioned a million people with unregistered long guns.

How old is that figure of a million people? Can we say before or after 2006? Before the amnesty? After the amnesty?

[Chief Bob Rich]

It's one of those figures people can pull out of the air, and I suppose nobody can ever criticize, but when I ask my own experts how many unregistered long guns there are today across Canada, they say it's--very conservatively--a million long guns. That's what they believe currently exists in Canada.

[Maria Mourani, Bloc, Ahuntsic, QC]

Is that before the amnesty? Has it been like that for a long time?

[Chief Bob Rich]

That's today. It's now. They continue to not be registered.

[Maria Mourani, Bloc, Ahuntsic, QC]

Do you have the figures for 2004, 2005, 2003?

[Chief Bob Rich]

No.

[Maria Mourani, Bloc, Ahuntsic, QC]

Can you get them?

[Chief Bob Rich]

No, because as I said in my comments, this is similar to estimating how many grow ops you have in your community. You really are only guessing, and I'm not trying to say that my statement about a million is anything more than an estimate.

[Maria Mourani, Bloc, Ahuntsic, QC]

I understand. As you say, the figures are kind of pulled out of a hat. That is what I understood from the translation.

[Chief Bob Rich]

I would say it's a figure drawn from a person who has a tremendous amount of understanding about guns in Canada, and it's as good a guess as anybody else's.

[Maria Mourani, Bloc, Ahuntsic, QC]

Are you talking about Mr. Mauser, the person whose photo Mr. Rahilly showed us? Was he the one who came up with the figure, or was it someone else? I saw his gun. It was pretty big.

[Chief Bob Rich]

I'm asking my own experts, not that professor. Thank you.

[Maria Mourani, Bloc, Ahuntsic, QC]

Okay. If I am not mistaken, Mr. Rich, you were talking about decriminalization. I have to tell you that it has been a while since I have heard the word “decriminalization” at this committee. I was trying to understand what you meant by it and I confess I still do not understand.

On June 15, 2000, the Supreme Court rendered a decision and I am going to read you an excerpt from it.

Guns cannot be divided neatly into two categories – those that are dangerous and those that are not dangerous. All guns are capable of being used in crime. All guns are capable of killing and maiming. It follows that all guns pose a threat to public safety…their control falls within the criminal law power.

That means that their control falls under federal jurisdiction. I am trying to understand. If the intent is to decriminalize, this is saying that sections 91 and 92 of the Criminal Code no longer exist. So not registering a gun, intentionally or not, is no longer a crime. Nothing is a crime any more and the management reverts to the provinces. Am I wrong?

[Chief Bob Rich]

I actually did go to law school, but that was 30 years ago, so you're asking a lot of me.

In the province, for example--I know that you know this--obviously we run registration systems for cars and drivers' licences. It's not a criminal system. The federal government can run registration systems that use law other than criminal law. You can have regulatory powers. We have regulatory laws from the federal government against catching lobsters inappropriately, so the federal government could, when it comes to the issue of registration, use non-criminal regulatory laws, or--and I'm not an expert on this--I suspect that a province could handle registration of firearms as opposed to the criminalization of possession.

[Maria Mourani, Bloc, Ahuntsic, QC]

Let us go back to the car example. Mr. Momy could perhaps enlighten us on this as well. Car registration comes under provincial jurisdiction, not federal. So, when we say that we want to decriminalize registration, it is saying that we want to delegate a power to the provinces. Because if it is criminal, it comes under the Criminal Code, specifically sections 91 and 92. I do not understand how it can be decriminalized without turning the registration over to the provinces. I do not know whether you can answer that for me, Mr. Momy.