Yes, and I'd like to clarify.
There are also different types of segregation. You have administrative segregation or segregation that has been used and is often used in systems for mental health issues or self-harm issues, and then you have segregation that is used for separation because of violence that is not related to mental health.
I would say that there are a lot of creative solutions that you can use from the mental health aspect, and Dr. Martin has spoken to a number of those. It's not that you don't, on occasion, have to separate people from the other population, it's the manner in which you do it and it's the timeframe in which you do it, because you cannot expect improvement when you put people in very severe conditions over very long periods of time. What you will end up doing is generating much more dangerous, much more violent individuals.
In the systems I worked in, both male institutions and female institutions, yes, there's segregation there, and on occasion there is a reason to segregate people. I think that the type of environment you build does not need to look as austere as usually it does because it basically deprives peoples of just basic human needs.
The other thing is the length of time. If you separate someone because of a disciplinary issue, because of violence, you don't need to keep them separate for great long periods of time. My experience in the male institutions was that it was something that was reviewed on a daily basis by management, and the sooner you could get that person out and into another environment, into a normalized environment, the safer the staff were. I know it's a very difficult thing to look to when you see this end product that's very violent and is acting out, but in reality, if you track back you'll see, in most cases, that this has been an ongoing process, that it didn't start out that way. When you segregate people for long periods of time you end up with a very violent and very dangerous population. It doesn't improve them; they don't get better.
If you relate it to kids, if you use extreme punishment on kids when they make mistakes or are difficult, you don't generate a positive reaction. And when you do that over periods of years, you're going to generate something that's very unfortunate.