Public Safety Committee on March 18th, 2010

[Rick Norlock, Conservative, Northumberland—Quinte West, ON]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

I have some questions for Mr. Head. I'll start off by asking you to comment on the statistics I'm going to give you. With regard to the prison farms, I'm told that about 19 out of 15,000 inmates have actually obtained employment in agriculture. Could you comment on the veracity of that statistic?

I also came across something today that I think better explains how we could best utilize the time people spend in our prisons to prepare them for when they get released. It is a CBC story that came out very recently about prison inmates in Prince Albert, Saskatchewan, at the Riverbend Institution, who contributed five hours to the construction of a 2,000-square-foot house owned by Mr. Matthew Charles and his wife and four children. The story goes on to say that some of the inmates who were constructing that house, because of the experience in carpentry, etc., actually were employed immediately upon being released.

I also observed some of the good work performed by individuals training people at the Warkworth Institution. You can actually get your sandblasting papers. I was told by the trainer that some of the inmates actually received employment offers before they even left the prison, and it's very rare that when they get their sandblasting ticket they ever come back.

I also saw people making furniture using modern machinery, computer-operated machinery, and when inmates were released they would be able to find employment in that area.

Could you comment on some of the other things going on with CORCAN in our institutions, where people are actually receiving training for jobs that are actually out there and that exist?

[Don Head]

Thank you for the question.

In terms of the numbers you presented, it's actually 99 out of 25,000 who went on to find jobs in the agriculture sector, so it's a relatively low number.

In terms of the CBC report you talked about, they actually put 5,000 hours of work into that 2,000-square-foot house. There were 19 offenders from the minimum security institution, Riverbend, which is adjacent to the Saskatchewan Penitentiary. It was a tremendous project all the way around in terms of providing offenders with the current-day skills they'll need to find jobs in the labour market. Several of those inmates have finished their sentences and actually have taken up jobs in the construction field as a result of the training they received.

We had a similar project out in Mountain Institution in British Columbia, where we were doing house framing. Again, it's another project that is giving inmates the kinds of skills that are going to allow them to find long-lasting jobs when they go out into the community.

Part of our focus right now as it relates to CORCAN is on making sure that our training and skills development reflect the need in the labour market so that offenders can find those kinds of jobs that pay a decent wage, allow them to support their families, and move on with their lives. We've had some very good projects in the last little while.

For example, in Saskatchewan as well, at the Saskatchewan Penitentiary, inmates have been involved in the welding program to fix those blades that do the plowing of the highways in Saskatchewan. One never thinks about those things running over the roads during all those winter months and getting worn down or about who fixes them. Well, there is a significant need in that province for that kind of skill, and we've started to do some work in Prince Albert.

The kinds of activities you talked about at Warkworth Institution are, again, relevant trades and skills that offenders need. We've also been involved in a project that has seen inmates refurbishing military vehicles, not the fighting vehicles or the combat vehicles, but the maintenance types of vehicles like the big cranes. DND has been very pleased with the work the offenders have done around those projects.

Again, these are the kinds of initiatives that we're looking for and that give offenders the skills they need to find the jobs that will help them stay out and not come back into conflict with the law.

[Rick Norlock, Conservative, Northumberland—Quinte West, ON]

Is there any time left?

[The Chair, Conservative, Garry Breitkreuz]

No. Sorry, but your time is up.

We'll go to the Bloc Québécois and Monsieur Desnoyers.

[Luc Desnoyers, Bloc, Rivière-des-Mille-Îles, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

My question is for Mr. Head. I am sharing my time with my colleague.

My question is simple. In the main estimates, we are looking at a $255 million increase. Does that include building new correctional facilities or are you planning on adding as many units to the existing sites as those already on the sites?

[Don Head]

The $255 million, which represents about an 11% increase in our main estimates, reflects $157 million in operating costs and $98 million in capital.

In terms of the operating costs, there are several initiatives. One is what we call the national—

[Luc Desnoyers, Bloc, Rivière-des-Mille-Îles, QC]

Mr. Head, my question is simple. Are you planning on building new institutions or additional units on the existing sites?

[Don Head]

As I mentioned in my answer previously, at this time we are not planning to build new institutions. We're going through the planning process to determine what the needs are going to be based on—

[Luc Desnoyers, Bloc, Rivière-des-Mille-Îles, QC]

Are you planning on building new units on the existing sites?

[Don Head]

That would be the first wave of what we're looking at. Yes.

[Luc Desnoyers, Bloc, Rivière-des-Mille-Îles, QC]

So that is going to happen?

[Don Head]

That's what we're looking at. Yes.

[Maria Mourani, Bloc, Ahuntsic, QC]

Thank you.

Where are you going to start? In Quebec? Ontario?

[Don Head]

As I mentioned earlier, this is the planning we're going through right now. We're trying to ascertain the exact numbers and then to determine where the best locations are for those temporary accommodations, the double-bunking, and any new units that we might build in existing institutions.

[Maria Mourani, Bloc, Ahuntsic, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Head.

My question is for Mr. Fadden, who is new to the Canadian Security Intelligence Service, I believe.

I noticed—and correct me if I am wrong—that the 2007-2008 budget was $389 million. The 2008-2009 report is not on your site. I want to believe that you are an intelligence agency, but we would still like to have access to the figures. I guess it is always the same. We are talking about an additional $28 million over two years. And that is almost half a billion dollars.

Could you tell me what you are doing with all that money? You are not the police, you have no weapons. Actually, you do not have anything: you are analysts. How many analysts are there? Is it the trips to Afghanistan that are expensive? I am quite intrigued. We are talking about almost half a billion dollars, after all.

[Richard Fadden, Director, Canadian Security Intelligence Service]

Yes, that seems like a lot of money. We have about 3,000 employees. We have some at our head office in Ottawa and others all across Canada. We have four regional offices and a number of district offices. We do actually have officers in Afghanistan and more than 30 people abroad. That is just the cost of the staff.

Making a security system work, collecting and coordinating information, requires a lot of technology. Coordinating our activities with those of security services around the world requires a lot of energy and effort. If we add the benefits provided to our employees and the capital costs, all that put together amounts to approximately half a billion dollars.

[Maria Mourani, Bloc, Ahuntsic, QC]

Is it your practice to hire retired people from the services or from the RCMP, as is done in the army, where two salaries are paid?

[Richard Fadden]

Honestly, I think it is being done, but it is relatively rare. We used that method in security screening, for example, when we have to determine whether people are entitled to security clearance. We do not have enough employees in that area, but the number of requests keeps increasing. If that interests you, I would be pleased to provide you with that information.

[Maria Mourani, Bloc, Ahuntsic, QC]

Yes, I would really like to have that information. Thank you. I think we will be seeing each other again.

[The Chair, Conservative, Garry Breitkreuz]

You have 30 seconds after you're done.

Okay, thank you very much.

We will now go on to Mr. Rathgeber, please.

[Brent Rathgeber, Conservative, Edmonton—St. Albert, AB]

Thank you, Mr. Chair, and I will be sharing my time with Mr. McColeman.

I only have one supplemental question for Assistant Commissioner Sweeney, and it was in response to a question Ms Mourani asked you about the long-gun registry.

I appreciate a couple of things. I appreciate that you were providing a personal opinion and not necessarily the opinion of the Royal Canadian Mounted Police.

I look at the estimates for 2010-2011 and a couple of line items here: $56 million for firearms licensing and supporting infrastructure, and a further $22 million for firearms registration. Again, I appreciate that there is no suggestion that hand-guns are not going to be registered, and there's certainly no suggestion that the licensing issue is going to be dismantled.

My question nonetheless is, in an era of finite and sometimes scarce resources, could whatever portion of that $78 million that is going to be saved should the long-gun registry be dismantled...in your view, could those scarce resources not be better deployed to promote what you said in your own words, officer safety and public safety?

[D/Commr William Sweeney]

There are always opportunities to reinvest money in other ventures, but I believe that money is well invested, and I maintain that it does promote officer and public safety.

[Brent Rathgeber, Conservative, Edmonton—St. Albert, AB]

Thank you.

[Phil McColeman, Conservative, Brant, ON]

My supplemental question would be to Mr. Rigby and it would pick up on Mr. Wrzesnewskyj's comments on arming our border guards.

Somewhere in the comments today it's been mentioned that there have been several incidents--I forget the number, but maybe you can clarify it for me--where people are coming to the border as armed individuals and our border guards have to stand back and retreat, and then a supplemental police service would have to arrive to deal with the situation.

I would like your views on the cost of an incident like that--the cost of whatever police service is called. Let's say it was in Fort Erie, so the Fort Erie Municipal Police Service or the OPP would be called in. I'd like your views on the types of things and safety issues that are faced in those situations.

[Stephen Rigby]

Thank you.

I think a lot of the thought that went into the original policy decision to arm border guards went to the issue of the evolving environment in which they work, speaking from a law enforcement point of view or from a national security point of view. I think that increasingly the officers who work at the border see the evolution of their role from a tax collector twenty years ago to more of a law enforcement officer today--not a policeman, I recognize, but a law enforcement officer.

I think the prevalence of criminality that has grown in border locations does go to the issue of why a decision was taken to arm the guards. And there have indeed been instances--I think the minister referred to one--where because there were armed and dangerous lookouts that were known to officers, they decided under Labour Canada rules to withdraw their services because they felt their health and safety was in danger, and that was completely within their rights.

Yes, obviously there are ancillary costs that would go to calling in other police forces. There are questions of response time that it would take for those other police forces to get to the border. Those I think all have to go into the reckoning as to whether or not this is an effective policy decision. I believe generally speaking that the evolving environment in which my officers work quite often supports that.