Public Safety Committee on Oct. 25th, 2010

[Vic Toews, Conservative, Provencher, MB]

Then let me give you a simple answer. There are agencies who make the determination as to whether or not there was any inappropriate conduct by any of the police officers involved, and that—

[Don Davies, NDP, Vancouver Kingsway, BC]

Okay, I've heard that, Mr. Minister.

You started out by saying you didn't know about the guilt or innocence. There were 1,105 people arrested; there were 900 people who were ultimately cleared without charge. That means they were not even arrested. They are innocent, Mr. Minister. The people who arrested them ended up dropping the charges when they went back to—

[Vic Toews, Conservative, Provencher, MB]

I'm sorry, I don't follow that. You said they weren't arrested.

[Don Davies, NDP, Vancouver Kingsway, BC]

There were 900 people who were arrested and charged and those charges were dropped. That's 900 people out of 1,100. That's almost 90% of Canadians who were arrested when...at first appearance the state had so little evidence they actually didn't proceed with the charges.

Are you comfortable with that?

[Vic Toews, Conservative, Provencher, MB]

Let me put it this way. I hope you put this question to the responsible police agencies and the crown attorneys who make that decision. As you know, those are provincial crown attorneys under the jurisdiction of the provincial Ontario Attorney General. I assume you're putting those questions to that individual.

[Don Davies, NDP, Vancouver Kingsway, BC]

So it's the province's fault and the police departments that are the issue.

[Vic Toews, Conservative, Provencher, MB]

I'm just indicating that I do not exercise authority in areas where I have no authority, and you would be the first to be critical if I did.

[Don Davies, NDP, Vancouver Kingsway, BC]

Mr. Minister, there were 20,000 security personnel within a 20-block radius in Toronto. There was a small group of agitators who ran amok, breaking store windows, torching police cars, for 30 minutes, without any interruption by a police officer.

I imagine you've checked into that. What can you tell us about how and why that occurred?

[Vic Toews, Conservative, Provencher, MB]

I can leave it to either the RCMP officer here or the security advisors to do that.

I do not get involved in the determination of the guilt or innocence of individuals on our streets who are demonstrating lawfully or otherwise.

[Don Davies, NDP, Vancouver Kingsway, BC]

I wasn't asking anything about guilt or innocence; I was asking about the conduct of police.

You're responsible for the RCMP, are you not, sir?

[Vic Toews, Conservative, Provencher, MB]

I do not involve—

[Don Davies, NDP, Vancouver Kingsway, BC]

Are you responsible for the RCMP or not?

[Vic Toews, Conservative, Provencher, MB]

Let me answer that. I am not responsible for the operational decisions of the RCMP or any other police department.

[Don Davies, NDP, Vancouver Kingsway, BC]

Mr. Minister--

[Vic Toews, Conservative, Provencher, MB]

Let me finish.

I am not responsible for the operational decisions of any police force. They respond to either police agencies, independent civilian agencies, or the courts.

I will not—

[Don Davies, NDP, Vancouver Kingsway, BC]

Who do the RCMP report to, sir? Do they not report to you?

[Vic Toews, Conservative, Provencher, MB]

The commissioner reports to me, but he does not report on operational matters.

What you're asking me to do is essentially unlearning the lesson we learned at the Hughes inquiry.

Do you recall the Hughes inquiry and the APEC—

[Don Davies, NDP, Vancouver Kingsway, BC]

Of course I do.

[Vic Toews, Conservative, Provencher, MB]

When the Liberals involved themselves in RCMP operations at a demonstration? That is highly inappropriate, Mr. Davies, and you know it.

[Don Davies, NDP, Vancouver Kingsway, BC]

I'm asking if it's concerning to you that people right in the middle of Toronto were arrested by police for no—

[The Chair, Conservative, Kevin Sorenson]

Mr. Davies, your time is up. In fact, you have more time than what--we'll proceed to the government side.

Mr. MacKenzie.

[Dave MacKenzie, Conservative, Oxford, ON]

Thank you to the panel that are here today.

One of the difficulties is that a number of people like to talk rather than listen. Minister, I think in your opening address you indicated there are reasons why the final costs aren't known. As I read from your opening address, it says, “Once the security partners submit their final financial claim for reimbursement, an independent audit will be conducted to ensure that only eligible costs are reimbursed.”

That would seem logical to most Canadians. But obviously my friend across the table thinks you should either guess at that or simply send a blank cheque and let them fill it in. That is the case. We're still waiting for some of those security partners.

[Vic Toews, Conservative, Provencher, MB]

That's correct. The security partners deliver their bills to us. The last date, as I understand it, is December 1 of this year. The auditing process will then occur to ensure the services claimed for have been delivered. Those will not only be audited by government officials but the Auditor General. And I welcome the Auditor General's review of our process in this particular case.

[Dave MacKenzie, Conservative, Oxford, ON]

And who might some of those security partners be that we would anticipate may very well submit invoices, if you will, to the government?

[Vic Toews, Conservative, Provencher, MB]

It can be anything from the Ontario Provincial Police, the Toronto Police Service, the Peel Regional Police. So all these individual organizations will calculate all their expenses, put forward the necessary documents to prove that claim, and then forward them to the responsible individuals in Public Safety.