Evidence of meeting #4 for Public Safety and National Security in the 40th Parliament, 3rd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was needs.
A recording is available from Parliament.
4:20 p.m.
Conservative
4:20 p.m.
Deputy Commissioner, Quebec Region, Correctional Service Canada
There are a number of perspectives on the way to manage mental health cases. Should they be criminalized or not?
The government has conducted consultations and Correctional Service Canada is working with the correctional services of the provinces and studying this mental health issue in the adult correctional system. Perhaps it might be worthwhile to see with the committee whether we can call the heads of the correctional services to see where they are in the midst of their proceedings.
I obviously don't have them in hand at this time, but there are also the analyses of the tribunals specialized in mental health. Such tribunals exist in various places. When an individual must appear before a judge, the mental health issue will be examined and the decision will be made whether to refer that case to the criminal justice system. An enormous amount of research is being done on those tribunals. That research is relatively recent. I think it would be worthwhile to look at what is coming out of that research.
March 23rd, 2010 / 4:20 p.m.
Liberal
Andrew Kania Liberal Brampton West, ON
Mr. Chair, Ms. Mourani has asked for extra time, so I'd like to give my time to her.
4:20 p.m.
Bloc
Maria Mourani Bloc Ahuntsic, QC
Thank you.
Ms. Vallée, I would like to go back to Martineau CCC. In what year was it established?
4:20 p.m.
Deputy Commissioner, Quebec Region, Correctional Service Canada
I think it was more than 10 years ago, Mrs. Mourani.
4:20 p.m.
Regional Coordinator, Institutional Mental Health, Quebec Region, Correctional Service Canada
It has been in existence since January 2000.
4:20 p.m.
Deputy Commissioner, Quebec Region, Correctional Service Canada
In fact, it was in existence before that, as a CCC, but the Correctional Service decided to make it a specialized mental health facility in January 2000.
4:20 p.m.
Bloc
Maria Mourani Bloc Ahuntsic, QC
You said it was in existence before that. In what year was it established?
4:20 p.m.
Deputy Commissioner, Quebec Region, Correctional Service Canada
I couldn't tell you. I don't have that information with me.
4:25 p.m.
Deputy Commissioner, Quebec Region, Correctional Service Canada
It was more recent.
4:25 p.m.
Deputy Commissioner, Quebec Region, Correctional Service Canada
There were no CCCs or community residential centres in the 1920s.
4:25 p.m.
Bloc
Maria Mourani Bloc Ahuntsic, QC
Absolutely.
I would like to go back to what Mrs. Glover said earlier. I moreover agree with her. I made submissions to my local authorities. I thought it was unacceptable for a child care centre to be located near a CCC. However, the school has been in existence since 1922.
How is it that the authorities responsible for that decided to build a CCC next door to a school that has been in existence since 1922? I can confirm for you that the first wing of the school has indeed been in existence since that year. The school was therefore already there before the CCC was established.
I'm not really trying to determine which of the two institutions was established first. My purpose instead is to answer Mrs. Glover and to show her that the question is still highly relevant in view of the fact that child protection seems to be an important point.
We are aware of the current neighbourhood dynamic. A school was built there long before the CCC was established, and there is also a child care centre. I'm not questioning the fact that the CCC takes in individuals who are suffering from mental health problems. What I am questioning, and what the Montreal School Board is questioning as well, is solely the presence of pedophiles.
Can you confirm for me, and for the parents in that area whose children attend the school, that there will never be an incident? I'm talking here about the children at that school, about the young girls who go by there, and so on. Can you confirm for me that there will never be an incident?
4:25 p.m.
Deputy Commissioner, Quebec Region, Correctional Service Canada
Mrs. Mourani, we unfortunately cannot confirm that for any of our offenders. Whether we're talking about pedophiles or offenders who've committed other types of serious offences, we can never confirm that kind of thing. However, we can confirm our commitment to carefully selecting the inmates who are referred to those places and our commitment to supervise them effectively.
4:25 p.m.
Bloc
Maria Mourani Bloc Ahuntsic, QC
I appreciate your honesty.
Ultimately, you're saying that you can't confirm a zero risk for us. The risk is always there. Consequently, you'll understand the concern of people who want to resort to prevention. So much the better if measures are taken to avoid a disaster, but are we going to wait for a disaster to occur in order to act? I frankly admit to you that, in my opinion, that isn't being done at your level. You aren't the ones who issue a directive concerning the CCC. That will be done at a higher level, and I respect that.
So I'm going to move on to another point, with your permission, Mr. Chairman.
We visited the SHU. I found the place very interesting and also very secure. And that's a very good thing. I don't doubt that state of affairs. However, we asked to see the segregation area, but that wasn't possible because an incident was in progress. One question troubles me. In a place as secure as that, inmates are alone and virtually never see each other. I was told they spend approximately 23 hours a day in their cells. When they take programs or courses, they are behind a bullet-proof window. So they have no contact with anyone, perhaps apart from the guards who bring them in and take them out. There's even a wall in the middle, between the cells, which prevents them from seeing each other.
Why are they confined in segregation when they are already so isolated? I didn't really understand. The SHU is already a form of segregation in itself.
4:25 p.m.
Conservative
4:25 p.m.
Deputy Commissioner, Quebec Region, Correctional Service Canada
They occasionally go out. They have common areas. I don't know whether you noticed, but there are common areas that inmates on the same side share. This is a small group. I don't remember exactly the number of individuals involved. Incidents may occasionally occur when inmates refuse to obey an order to enter their cells, for example. Then we're forced to use pepper, in particular. There may be friction at certain times. It's rare, but it can happen. The inmates come from across Canada. We obviously try to manage the incompatibilities, but sometimes it's a bit volatile. Then there's a little friction, hence segregation.
4:30 p.m.
Conservative
Phil McColeman Conservative Brant, ON
Thank you, Chair.
I would like to thank the witnesses for appearing here today. Thank you for giving us your time and your expertise.
As part of the preamble to my question, I just want to let you know that we're not fixated on the number of inmates. What we're fixated on is making sure we're providing the best mental health and addiction services we can to inmates.
On that point, I would like to make a comment on page ten of your report. The statistics, as I read them, are quite impressive. They're quite impressive in terms of the outcomes and the results you're having with the continuum of care you outline. I'll just refer to page seven of your report, which talks about the teams of people involved: nurses, behavioural counsellors, parole officers, psychologists, and correctional officers who review the cases every two weeks. These teams are to be commended because of the results showing up.
My question has more to do with what more we can do. That's what we're here to study. What more can we do to have successful outcomes? I guess it's a two-part question in one way. Having been involved in my community with mental health issues, on balance I think the services we're providing to reintegrate people into the community, compared to the population with mental health issues who aren't criminal offenders.... We're doing a fantastic job in a comparative situation.
Do you ever compare the outcomes of people who have committed crimes and are reintegrated to those with mental health issues and successful outcomes in the community?
4:30 p.m.
Regional Coordinator, Institutional Mental Health, Quebec Region, Correctional Service Canada
I would need to go back to the statistics we do have. Do you now want to know if offenders with mental health issues will be more inclined to recidivism? Is this what you want to know?
4:30 p.m.
Conservative
Phil McColeman Conservative Brant, ON
Not really recidivism as much as positive outcomes to overcome their mental health challenges.
4:30 p.m.
Regional Coordinator, Institutional Mental Health, Quebec Region, Correctional Service Canada
Yes, because they are never cured.
We need to do the follow-up. It's a lifetime project for them. This is why we need to build stronger links with the provincial mental health agencies and resources, because at the end of the mandate they're going to need this support from the mental health agency.
Something I do know is that we are under the impression--and I will have to check with the numbers--that right now the problem we are facing with offenders with mental health issues is that they are coming back behind bars. They are suspended more frequently than regular offenders.
I don't know if you are interested in this.
