Public Safety Committee on Nov. 22nd, 2010

[Mumtaz Muhammed]

I went through that too. I did a robbery. One of my conditions was that the people I robbed ended up showing up at the court. It was like a two-sided thing without really having to go through court. They told me how they felt and how it impacted them. So I've already been through that. To have other people, because of the stuff I've done--I did robberies and slept in dwelling houses, because I was on the streets--I have no problem with that.

[Phil McColeman, Conservative, Brant, ON]

By the way, I have just one last comment, if you will allow me. I don't consider any of you to be in that most heinous category, as was depicted. That was a misrepresentation. If it came across that way, it was not meant that way.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kevin Sorenson]

Thank you, Mr. McColeman.

Madame Mendes.

[Maria Mourani, Bloc, Ahuntsic, QC]

Mr. Chair, given the fact that the witnesses have talked about their offences, will Mr. McColeman grant them a pardon? It's just that, during the testimony, it felt like we were at a National Parole Board hearing.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kevin Sorenson]

That is not a point of order.

Madame Mendes.

[Alexandra Mendes, Liberal, Brossard—La Prairie, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

If this bill passes, none of you would be eligible for a pardon. That would be the first limiting thing. Victim impact or not, it wouldn’t change much in your cases. This is why we are against this legislation. Pardons have always been a privilege; they are not a right, and I think we all agree on this. I think Mr. Hutton was taking a good policy direction when he asked why we were changing this on the basis of the most heinous examples. Why don’t we look at how the pardon system worked? Was it working well? I would like to give you the opportunity to pursue that.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kevin Sorenson]

Thank you, Madame Mendes.

Mr. Hutton.

[John Hutton]

Both Kenton and I mentioned that 96% of pardons did not have to be revoked. Pardons were granted under the system that was in effect up until June. This shows that the system was working well and that those who were applying for pardons had gone past the period of risk. There are repeat offenders, I understand that. In my work, I meet many of these individuals. But somebody who has gone at least five years without committing an offence has stopped being a repeat offender. So pardons aren’t being given to repeat offenders. They may be given to people who have offended many times in the past, but at some point they have stopped, moved forward, and achieved stability.

[Alexandra Mendes, Liberal, Brossard—La Prairie, QC]

They have spent five years or more taking charge of their lives and trying to find a path that will make them productive citizens. Wouldn’t it be a lot less productive if we denied them pardons? Then they wouldn’t be able to find that path.

Mr. Muhammed or Mr. Courchene, if you didn't have the possibility of obtaining a pardon, would that be one more reason for you to go back to a life of crime?

[Chris Courchene]

If I can’t get a pardon, I don’t want to go back to the old lifestyle. I’ll sweep floors for the rest of my life. I will sweep this floor if I have to.

[Alexandra Mendes, Liberal, Brossard—La Prairie, QC]

You wouldn’t be able to.

[Chris Courchene]

I don’t want to say that I would go back to crime. I know I won’t because I have children and I want them to be proud of me. I don’t care if cleaning the streets is what they have to be proud of. I am going to do it for my kids. If I had no kids, then I would do it for my cousins. And if I had no cousins, I would just do it for me.

I lived a bad lifestyle and I have seen what happens. I don’t want to go back to it. That's why I went through programs. That's why I went to school. I became a supervisor to show people that.

[Alexandra Mendes, Liberal, Brossard—La Prairie, QC]

What is your main reason for obtaining a pardon, then?

[Chris Courchene]

I want to get a job at Manitoba Hydro. They ask for criminal record checks just to work on a telephone pole.

[Alexandra Mendes, Liberal, Brossard—La Prairie, QC]

For you, Mr. Muhammed?

[Mumtaz Muhammed]

Can you repeat that?

[Alexandra Mendes, Liberal, Brossard—La Prairie, QC]

What is your reason for trying to obtain a pardon?

[Mumtaz Muhammed]

My main reason is just to have an adequate job where I don't have to struggle as much. Right now I work as a roofer, a small guy like me. Everyone that works around me is a giant. But I have been there every day, and I am not going to miss a day, with or without this pardon. A pardon will allow me to run around with the family I will someday have, instead of walking with a crutch. I would be better able to provide for them. So I need to get pardoned for what I have done, and I need that for myself as well.

[Alexandra Mendes, Liberal, Brossard—La Prairie, QC]

Mr. Fraser, I think you mentioned that it's mostly for professional reasons too, as a question of advancement in your career.

[Barrett Fraser]

For professional reasons and for closure.

[Alexandra Mendes, Liberal, Brossard—La Prairie, QC]

Okay, thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kevin Sorenson]

Thank you very much.

We'll now move to Mr. Rathgeber.

[Brent Rathgeber, Conservative, Edmonton—St. Albert, AB]

Thank you, Mr. Chair, and thank you to all the witnesses for your attendance here today.

And to Mr. Fraser, Mr. Courchene, and Mr. Muhammed, for the efforts and successes you've made in turning your lives around, I do genuinely congratulate you.

Mr. Fraser, I have a question. In your opening comments you indicated that you did some time incarcerated, you paid your fines, and therefore you've paid your debt to society. Did I hear that correctly?

[Barrett Fraser]

Yes. I went through my sentencing. I did parole. I did fines. I took programs. Everything that Corrections Canada told me I had to do, I did.

[Brent Rathgeber, Conservative, Edmonton—St. Albert, AB]

So by saying you paid your debt to society, can I assume that all your victims have been fully compensated?