Public Safety Committee on Dec. 15th, 2010

[Don Davies, NDP, Vancouver Kingsway, BC]

Okay. So now a person could be arrested under this legislation and could be detained for, so far, up to more than three days before they get in front of a judge.

[Donald Piragoff]

Under the existing law that applies to criminal charges, a person is to be brought before a judge within 24 hours. Sometimes that may not happen, so the law provides some flexibility. The crown attorney is entitled—

[Don Davies, NDP, Vancouver Kingsway, BC]

Sir, we'll get further here if I can interrupt you.

I'm not asking you—

[Donald Piragoff]

Mr. Chairman, may I answer the question, please?

[The Chair, Conservative, Kevin Sorenson]

I'll give you extra time, Mr. Davies. Just let him answer here.

[Don Davies, NDP, Vancouver Kingsway, BC]

Okay.

[Donald Piragoff]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Under the existing law the crown prosecutor can make an application to the judge that the state needs more time in order to convince the judge as to why the individual should be detained. And the judge is entitled, under the current law in the Criminal Code, to remand the person in custody for up to 72 hours.

[Don Davies, NDP, Vancouver Kingsway, BC]

Can I ask you, then, sir—

[Donald Piragoff]

This bill is mirrored on the same types of safeguards that exist with respect to persons who are charged. So the same time periods apply.

[Don Davies, NDP, Vancouver Kingsway, BC]

Mr. Piragoff, I'm going to interrupt you because you're wasting my time. I have seven minutes, sir.

I did not ask you what the current law is. We're dealing with this section under this legislation. To answer my question, yes, a person can be detained under this legislation, Bill C-17, for more than three days. Your answer, sir, is that we could do it anyway. That's not what I am asking you.

This legislation says that. So my next question is, if the current law allows this, what's the need for this provision, then?

[Donald Piragoff]

The nature of this provision is that under the current law it applies on arrest. I think I answered earlier that arrest requires that the police have reasonable and probable grounds to believe that an offence will be committed and that a particular individual is the person who will commit the offence.

This particular bill, while it requires that the police officer have reasonable grounds to believe that an offence will be committed, provides that the police officer may not know who the likely perpetrators are but knows that certain individuals are likely involved, and that if the individual is brought before a judge, that will likely prevent the commission of the terrorist activity because that person and other unknown persons who may be involved will know that the state is aware of the activities.

[Don Davies, NDP, Vancouver Kingsway, BC]

Well, actually, Mr. Piragoff, there is an important difference between this.... That's why this law is being proposed. The current law does not deal with the situation in which it allows the police to arrest someone when they don't have specific information that the person they're arresting may be involved.

That's the key difference, is it not?

Under the Criminal Code now, the police officer has to have reasonable and probable grounds that the person they're arresting is about to commit an offence.

[Donald Piragoff]

That's correct.

[Don Davies, NDP, Vancouver Kingsway, BC]

Under this legislation, they may not know that the particular person they're arresting has anything to do with it, but it allows them to arrest that person anyway. Is that correct?

[Donald Piragoff]

That's correct.

[Don Davies, NDP, Vancouver Kingsway, BC]

Yes. So people who may have nothing to do with the thing could be arrested under this legislation.

I put to you, sir, that this is an incursion into people's constitutional rights.

I'm going to ask you this as well.

[Donald Piragoff]

May I answer the question?

[Don Davies, NDP, Vancouver Kingsway, BC]

I didn't ask you a question yet.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kevin Sorenson]

Let him finish, and then I will let you—

[Don Davies, NDP, Vancouver Kingsway, BC]

Well, I haven't asked a question yet, so I want to ask this question.

Someone is arrested for up to three or three and a half days, or detained. If the person is released—because this also says that if nothing ends up happening, they have to be released—what remedy does that citizen have after being arrested and detained for three and a half days, and then arrested without any real reason after? What remedy would you tell that Canadian they have?

[Donald Piragoff]

Thank you.

Mr. Chair, with respect to the first question, the police officer has to have suspicion. You can't just do anyone.... The bill makes it clear that there have to be reasonable grounds to suspect that the arrest of this particular person is necessary to prevent the carrying out of a terrorist activity.

[Don Davies, NDP, Vancouver Kingsway, BC]

How is that different from the current criminal law, then, sir?

[Donald Piragoff]

The current criminal law is that the police officer has reasonable grounds to believe that this particular individual is the person who is going to commit the terrorist act.

[Don Davies, NDP, Vancouver Kingsway, BC]

So what does this legislation make the police officer think about the person they're arresting?

[Donald Piragoff]

This provision could apply to others who are not going to be the actual bomb throwers but may have been involved in the conspiracy.