Public Safety Committee on Dec. 15th, 2010

[Phil McColeman, Conservative, Brant, ON]

So our government has taken into consideration those human rights values and those personal freedom values that Canadians enjoy and has balanced that with the need to make sure we have the effective tools in law enforcement's hands for fighting terrorism.

[Donald Piragoff]

In developing the bill, as I indicated...and this goes back to 2001. We looked at other laws in other countries. We also had regard to our own legal system, the Canadian Charter of Rights, the jurisprudence, and the existing provisions in the Criminal Code as to how persons who were accused were treated in terms of detention times and periods that they may be held.

We tried to parallel these provisions as much as possible on the existing powers and safeguards that apply to accused persons, and then, as this bill shows, there are a lot more safeguards to deal with persons who would be subject to this act than there are actually applicable to persons who are accused. Persons who are accused do not get the consent of the Attorney General before they are arrested, for example. They do not have oversight. They do not have parliamentary oversight. They do not have ministers who are required to make annual reports.

So actually, even though these are new powers that apply before the normal criminal process would kick into force, we have tried to put in more safeguards to balance the fact that we are into an area, a gap, that has not previously been legislated in.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kevin Sorenson]

Thank you, Mr. Piragoff.

Now we'll go back to the opposition.

[Andrew Kania, Liberal, Brampton West, ON]

Thank you.

I'll go back to where I ended. I want to start by saying that I'm not against these provisions. It was a Liberal government that brought them in, initially, after 9/11, but we've had the benefit of experience over a number of years in terms of seeing what's effective and what's truly necessary.

So I'm trying to analyze this to see what we truly need to protect Canadians--and that's it; that's why I'm asking you these questions. They're not trick questions. They're simply trying to find out what we really need here in Canada.

So I'll ask you again. Do you have any information to suggest that since February of 2007--because we've been without these laws since February of 2007--because we have had that period of time without these laws, we've in any way been prejudiced or suffered or have been at risk and that they would have helped in some way? Yes or no.

[Donald Piragoff]

Obviously the crown prosecutors in the Air India case were of the opinion that the provisions on investigative hearings were useful for a witness they encountered who was not providing information, and therefore they made an application to use an investigative hearing to obtain evidence from a witness. So clearly it has been used at least once since 2001, and that was the investigative hearing provision in British Columbia.

[Andrew Kania, Liberal, Brampton West, ON]

When was that?

[Donald Piragoff]

In 2004.

[Andrew Kania, Liberal, Brampton West, ON]

Okay. So my question was, since these provisions expired in February of 2007, between then and now, do you have any information that Canada or Canadians have suffered because we've not had these provisions in place?

[Donald Piragoff]

That's a hypothetical because it's a negative: the provisions haven't been in place.

[Andrew Kania, Liberal, Brampton West, ON]

Exactly. So do you have any information from any source to suggest that because they've not been in place since February 2007 we have somehow suffered? Is there some particular example you're aware of between February 2007 and now in which it would have been helpful if we had had them?

[Donald Piragoff]

I think you would have to ask the investigative authorities whether they could have used an investigative hearing since 2004. I don't know what decisions have been made by individual attorneys general throughout the provinces or by the RCMP in terms of investigation. Those are questions you should be asking them.

[Andrew Kania, Liberal, Brampton West, ON]

That's fine, but my question is whether you're aware of any cases. I know there are lots of other people we can ask questions of. My question is to you, whether you are aware of any cases.

[Donald Piragoff]

Again I repeat, you should ask other individuals, who were actually operationally involved in these cases, whether they would have used these powers if they had been available since 2004.

[Andrew Kania, Liberal, Brampton West, ON]

I don't understand why you're having difficulty with this question. In your mind, do you have any information? Are you aware of any cases?

[Donald Piragoff]

You're asking me for a hypothetical—

[Andrew Kania, Liberal, Brampton West, ON]

No, I'm not. I'm asking you whether you're aware of any specific cases.

[Donald Piragoff]

I'm not privy to RCMP or Toronto Police operational tactics, or decisions made by crown attorneys in British Columbia or even the federal government. The Public Prosecution Service is an independent agency. They don't tell me the decisions they make. They don't tell me the decisions they would have made. So that's why I'm saying you have to ask those individuals—the prosecuting authorities, the Public Prosecution Service of Canada, the RCMP, CSIS—with respect to whether they have particular cases that would have been handled differently if these powers were in force or not.

[Andrew Kania, Liberal, Brampton West, ON]

You speak with those various bodies from time to time, correct?

The answer is obviously “yes”.

[Donald Piragoff]

If you're asking me about certain things they told me or did not tell me, I'm not at liberty to tell you what the security agencies—

[Andrew Kania, Liberal, Brampton West, ON]

No. I asked you whether you speak to those bodies from time to time. I didn't think it was that difficult. You speak to those bodies from time to time. Is that correct?

[Donald Piragoff]

Yes, I speak to them, but if you're asking—

[Andrew Kania, Liberal, Brampton West, ON]

Good. Do they provide recommendations to you on matters from time to time—

[Donald Piragoff]

Yes, they do.

[Andrew Kania, Liberal, Brampton West, ON]

—about what they might like to see changed under the law?

[Donald Piragoff]

We consult the provinces. We consult the RCMP. We have a network of consultation in Canada to determine whether or not reforms are necessary.