Public Safety Committee on Feb. 8th, 2011

[D/Commr Raf Souccar]

Yes.

[Andrew Kania, Liberal, Brampton West, ON]

It's sort of a dividing line: you can have the way you say things, you can be disrespectful or abusive, and then you can say things that are not logical or are irresponsible in terms of the operations of the force. Are you saying it was the first, the second, or both?

[D/Commr Raf Souccar]

No, no. Bill Elliott is not irresponsible. He's smart; he's a smart person. It's the interpersonal skills. I guess quality lacks, and that has offended many members and caused morale to go down. But in terms of his—

[Andrew Kania, Liberal, Brampton West, ON]

Can you give an example?

[D/Commr Raf Souccar]

He wouldn't have intentionally done anything to harm the operations of the organization and so on. I believe his heart was in the right place. I believe that everything he did, he tried to do for the good of the organization.

[Andrew Kania, Liberal, Brampton West, ON]

Can you give an example of a complaint?

[D/Commr Raf Souccar]

I will maybe just leave it to individuals, many individuals who have complained over the disrespectful manner in which they were dealt with, embarrassed, humiliated, in a setting such as a group of the number here.

[Andrew Kania, Liberal, Brampton West, ON]

This July 25, 2010 letter that you signed, was this the first public gesture or act that you did with respect to this?

[D/Commr Raf Souccar]

July 25...?

[Andrew Kania, Liberal, Brampton West, ON]

There's a letter, July 25, 2010.... That was Mr. McDonell. Sorry.

Was that the first public outcry with respect to these?

[D/Commr Raf Souccar]

I'm not sure how you define “public”, but the first time that the complaint went outside the organization was in early July, and the first person was to Patricia Hassard of PCO.

[Andrew Kania, Liberal, Brampton West, ON]

And you mentioned that.

Now, before that call to Patricia Hassard, had either of you met with any government official, including the deputy minister or otherwise, and expressed these concerns at any point during that three-year period of time leading up to that call to Patricia Hassard?

[D/Commr Raf Souccar]

No. And in fact every attempt was made through the first three years, despite issues, to support Bill Elliott. I know Senior Deputy Commissioner Sweeney had been working very closely with him. I know Deputy Commissioner Peter Martin, who has passed away, also dealt with him on this matter. I know Deputy Commissioner Tim Killam tried working with him. Every senior member of the senior executive committee that I know of has tried talking with him about these issues to be able to deal with them in private.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kevin Sorenson]

Thank you very much, Mr. Souccar and Mr. Kania.

We'll now move to Madame Mourani.

Oh, I'm sorry. No, I'm sorry, it's Mr. MacKenzie. How could I do that?

I apologize to you, Madame Mourani. We will come to you.

Go ahead.

[Dave MacKenzie, Conservative, Oxford, ON]

Thank you, Chair.

That's Inspector Killam, now with the Ontario Provincial Police?

[Insp Mike McDonell]

That's correct.

[Dave MacKenzie, Conservative, Oxford, ON]

Yes.

I am a little bit concerned about referring to the commissioner by his name. I don't want to be disrespectful to Deputy Commissioner Souccar, but I notice you've referred to everybody else by their rank within the Ontario Provincial Police, of which you're now a member. I expect you would refer to your commissioner as Commissioner Lewis in the OPP.

[Insp Mike McDonell]

If I'm referring to him within my office I refer to him as Commissioner Lewis, but I speak to him as Chris.

[Dave MacKenzie, Conservative, Oxford, ON]

Absolutely. I have a little bit of background, and certainly as a chief you expect to talk to your people frequently on a first-name basis, but publicly you refer to the individual by his rank?

[Insp Mike McDonell]

Yes.

[Dave MacKenzie, Conservative, Oxford, ON]

Yes, okay.

We had Deputy Commissioner Killam here back on November 29, 2010, and you may be aware of that. He indicated there's a grievance procedure. He was not part of any formal grievance in any way, shape, or form. He explained his position with respect to the commissioner--sometimes he's blunt--and they addressed themselves in a similar manner.

He says it's done in a professional, straightforward, frank way, and going outside of that is not useful for anyone, in particular, the organization. He had an opportunity to tell us something, but his story was a little different.

I respect your opinions, but is it fair to say that not everybody shared the same opinions within the organization? Deputy Commissioner Killam's opinion may not have been shared by everyone else, nor would your opinions have been shared by....

[D/Commr Raf Souccar]

You may need to clarify your question for me. I'm not sure exactly which opinion you're referring to.

[Dave MacKenzie, Conservative, Oxford, ON]

When we heard Deputy Commissioner Killam he didn't indicate he had any issues with respect to the commissioner, and all I'm saying is that not everybody's opinion in any organization is always the same. There are those who have one opinion and someone else has another opinion. Is that a fair assessment?

[D/Commr Raf Souccar]

I can answer this question. I don't know exactly what Tim Killam said during his testimony here, but I do know that Tim Killam and I have had many conversations, and there was no light between us. Our opinions were identical.

[Dave MacKenzie, Conservative, Oxford, ON]

All right. He said something different to the committee, but that's fair enough.

The other thing is my colleague asked about the minister providing a directive to the members of the organization. Do you see that a political body should provide direction to the members of the RCMP in any way, shape, or form?