Public Safety Committee on Feb. 8th, 2011

[D/Commr Raf Souccar]

My view is that a commissioner should be picking at least his or her direct reports.

[Mark Holland, Liberal, Ajax—Pickering, ON]

Mr. McDonell, you didn't have the opportunity to give some specific examples of things for the purposes of illustrating what was being dealt with. For example, if you had the opportunity today to do that exit interview, what are some of the specific examples that you would want to give that underscore your concerns more broadly?

[The Chair, Conservative, Kevin Sorenson]

Very quickly; our time is up here already.

[Insp Mike McDonell]

I think the most important example, as I mentioned, is the muting of the senior management team and that there was no contrary opinion entertained and just the browbeating of the committee. I did tell the commissioner that it was a waste of my time to attend the senior management team meetings, that I should be back with my people.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kevin Sorenson]

Thank you, Mr. McDonell.

We'll move to Mr. Norlock, please.

[Rick Norlock, Conservative, Northumberland—Quinte West, ON]

Thank you very much.

Thank you very much to the witnesses for appearing.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kevin Sorenson]

I am sorry, Mr. Norlock.

Madame Mourani, go ahead.

[Maria Mourani, Bloc, Ahuntsic, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kevin Sorenson]

I tried to give you the position earlier, and now I took it away, so I apologize. Go ahead.

[Maria Mourani, Bloc, Ahuntsic, QC]

Okay, thank you.

I want to come back to what you were saying, Mr. Souccar. The issues with Mr. Elliott's personality and interpersonal relationships aside, I have a really hard time believing that Mr. Elliott was not there to impose the government's agenda, especially given what Mr. McDonell just said about senior management being muzzled and having no freedom.

Why would Mr. Elliott have muzzled senior management if he did not have an agenda? And that agenda was not his. He was appointed by the government, and he was put in that position to carry out the government's agenda. So I have a really hard time believing that you, the deputy commissioner, who worked very closely with him, who knows everything about the organization's structure, did not detect any interference by the government.

[D/Commr Raf Souccar]

I think that is a question that should be put to the commissioner, not me.

[Maria Mourani, Bloc, Ahuntsic, QC]

Give me your opinion.

[D/Commr Raf Souccar]

I believe, as I said earlier, that Bill Elliott is a very intelligent man. His intentions were always in the right place, as far as I'm concerned. It was more of a question as to how he went about accomplishing his goals and objectives. Whether or not

his decisions were based on the government's will, I do not know. I do not know what he talked about with the minister or the Prime Minister.

[Maria Mourani, Bloc, Ahuntsic, QC]

I understand all that. But interpersonal relationships aside, he was supposed to put forward ideas. He put forward ideas and an agenda you may not necessarily have been in full agreement with. Give me one idea Mr. Elliott brought to the RCMP that you did not agree with, just one.

[D/Commr Raf Souccar]

I'm sorry, I can't think of one item that Commissioner Elliott wanted to bring to the RCMP. Something may come to me later—I'm blank right now—but that wasn't the issue as much as how quickly things—

[Maria Mourani, Bloc, Ahuntsic, QC]

I will ask you again. We are allowed to ask more questions later on. Think about it, and you can tell me later.

Now I would like to come back to your letter, Mr. McDonell. In the letter you wrote to the minister, you said that, during the G20, the Minister of National Defence and the Minister of Public Safety visited the site, but that your commissioner waited until June 23 to tell you that he wanted to visit four locations. You also said you found it quite astonishing that the Commissioner of the RCMP, the person directly responsible for certain operations, showed up at the last minute.

Is that not a sign of total incompetence? I think so, but do you? Or is it the behaviour of someone who is completely out of touch with reality?

[Insp Mike McDonell]

I wouldn't classify it as incompetence. My opinion is that it was poor judgment.

[Maria Mourani, Bloc, Ahuntsic, QC]

Great. Thank you very much.

Now I want to ask you something, Mr. Souccar. As the deputy commissioner, you represent a government organization. Even though you are not the commissioner, you still more or less represent the organization. I showed Commissioner Elliott an RCMP document on human trafficking in Canada. It talked about people who were exploited and sex-trade workers, as if the women and young girls being trafficked were workers.

Do you see them as workers or exploited individuals?

[D/Commr Raf Souccar]

They are exploited individuals, no doubt about it.

[Maria Mourani, Bloc, Ahuntsic, QC]

Very well.

[D/Commr Raf Souccar]

I remember the discussion on that. The reason it may be referred to as work has to do with the fact that these individuals are exploited doing that work, but it is not legitimate work.

[Maria Mourani, Bloc, Ahuntsic, QC]

I understand. Well, I am trying to understand, but it is not very logical.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kevin Sorenson]

Thank you, Madame Mourani.

We'll now move to Mr. Norlock.

[Rick Norlock, Conservative, Northumberland—Quinte West, ON]

Once again, thank you to the witnesses for appearing.

Let me say right from the start that I understand, having served in a police force that Inspector McDonell now serves with and for, the tremendous personal toll this takes when a police officer must appear before a political body such as this and take a public stand.

I respect and take wholeheartedly what you said. You're a very strong individual, Deputy Commissioner, for having done that. Whether or not we agree with the process is, in my view, totally irrelevant. You are a man of honour and should be respected, and every single Canadian who's watching this should feel that our RCMP, that institution, is in good hands.

I guess my fear was that your appearance here today would somehow descend into some acrimonious, accusatorial abyss where everything is the government's fault. I think every single Canadian, everybody in this room, wants only the best for our police force, because if we don't have and maintain the respect for our police forces then the whole system of justice.... We sit on the justice committee; the police force is where the rubber meets the road.

When Commissioner Elliott was first appointed to his position as commissioner I can recall his appearing before this committee. I made the statement then, and I still stand by it, that in the OPP one of the commissioners we had was appointed from the civil service. His name was Eric Silk, Commissioner Eric Silk, and quite frankly, even young officers like myself knew, even though he was on his way out, that he was looked on as modernizing the OPP, bringing in new concepts, new ideas, new ways of doing things.

I guess as my first question to you, Mr. Souccar, I know you were asked this question and you said the next commissioner should come from within the ranks, as happened in the OPP. And I could make some comments on that, but I shall not. Do you see, at any juncture in the RCMP—not necessarily the next commissioner—where the commissioner could come from a civilian background because of his or her abilities as a leader, his or her ability as a good administrator, and as a person who might bring in some new concepts and think outside of the box? Can you give your comments there?

[D/Commr Raf Souccar]

In my opening comments I said that there does not appear to be a debate any longer as to whether the next commissioner should be a police officer or not. Bill Elliott himself--as recently as in this morning's paper, I believe--said that the next one should absolutely be a police officer.

As I also said earlier, when Bill Elliott was appointed as commissioner of the RCMP in 2007, although it was a bit of a shock to the system initially, everybody settled into it very quickly. I can tell you here in all frankness that everyone I worked with, everybody who reported to me, and everyone who I spoke with became very comfortable very quickly. In fact, we felt at the time, with all the changes that were about to come, that this was probably the best thing that could happen to us, because we'd have somebody who understands the bureaucracy, somebody who understands how government works--better than police officers do--and it would be very helpful to us; this change of mindset would be probably a good thing for the RCMP.

So could the next person, assuming we put that debate that I said seems to be done with...be somebody from outside? Yes, certainly, it could...as long as that person has the leadership skills and is secure enough in who they are to surround themselves with the right people, to be able to listen to advice, and to ultimately make the decision but not stifle the discussion: to allow input, listen, and be stronger by surrounding themselves with the right people. Leadership, at the end of the day, will win the day.