Public Safety Committee on Feb. 15th, 2011

[A/Commr Peter Henschel]

Yes, we retain them. Furthermore, with regard to DNA, we abide by the laws and regulations. There are two laws, the DNA Identification Act and the Identification of Criminals Act. We have established processes to protect private personal information in accordance with the acts in effect. That's why these processes exist. They have to be followed to ensure compliance with the acts and regulations, particularly with regard to the National DNA Data Bank.

[Maria Mourani, Bloc, Ahuntsic, QC]

I understand that this is a matter of forms and that it's also a matter of law. However, in the case of mixed criminal offences, why don't you use form 3801? Why don't you use those forms? I don't understand.

In the case of mixed criminal offences, why do you wait to receive the 216 form? Does the RCMP make a decision internally? Is there an act preventing you from doing that?

[A/Commr Peter Henschel]

No. As I mentioned earlier, you have to have a 216 form in order to open a criminal record.

[Maria Mourani, Bloc, Ahuntsic, QC]

Even in the case of mixed offences?

[A/Commr Peter Henschel]

Yes.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kevin Sorenson]

Madam Mourani, your time is long gone.

To continue, we will go to...

Do you have a question? Are you taking the NDP round this time? Okay.

[Andrew Kania, Liberal, Brampton West, ON]

When I left off the last time, we were discussing what we could do for you to try to help you fix these problems and make the system more efficient. I had suggested that perhaps you could look into it and prepare some type of memorandum. Is there anything else at this stage that you would be able to add in terms of what we might be able to do to assist you?

[A/Commr Peter Henschel]

No. I think it would be fair to say that certainly if we had more resources, more funding, it would allow us to move things forward more quickly. But at the same time, we understand there are many other priorities within the RCMP, within national police services, and also elsewhere within government. I think that's a policy question for government to determine whether this priority is more important than other priorities.

[Andrew Kania, Liberal, Brampton West, ON]

I would suggest to you that it's for you to tell us what you need to fix your problems and to make things better. Then it's for the government to decide whether that can be accommodated. I'm not looking for you to make the policy decision in terms of what the government should or should not prioritize. I am looking for you to tell us. When you say you need more funding, more personnel, more technology, whatever it might be, I'd like to know what that is specifically, including a number. Then it's for the government to decide whether that can be accommodated.

[A/Commr Peter Henschel]

I think it's very difficult for us to say a specific number. I'll say that more resources would be helpful, but there are many factors. It's not just the actual resources. It's also how quickly you can do the automation. It's also how quickly police services can do the automation. There is a variety of factors.

[Andrew Kania, Liberal, Brampton West, ON]

That's fine, as long as you understand that we're with you here. When you say more resources would be helpful, anybody from any department or agency or service, sitting in that chair, could say that, theoretically. So I'm trying to get from you.... And I'm not trying to put you on the spot, so if you can't give an answer today, that's fine. But I am looking for you to provide, at some point in time, some specific answer so that if, for example, it was possible to say “Okay, that's a reasonable amount of money”, or “These are additional persons we could provide to you to help solve the problem”, then you're happy and you do your work and solve the problems.

At some point in time, whether it's today or in a reasonable period of time from now, through written form, I would like to know from you what that number is or what those personnel additions might be to solve these problems. Is that agreeable?

[A/Commr Peter Henschel]

We can give that some thought, certainly.

[Andrew Kania, Liberal, Brampton West, ON]

Okay.

Go ahead.

[Alexandra Mendes, Liberal, Brossard—La Prairie, QC]

If I may, Mr. Chair, actually it's more than just a question of resources.

Legislatively, can we do something to help you? I was struck by something you said, that not all police forces...actually provincially they're not mandated to provide you with certain information, like the name changes, for example.

[A/Commr Peter Henschel]

Yes, that's not a police force issue. Requiring fingerprints submitted with legal name changes is provincial legislation, so that's a provincial issue.

[Alexandra Mendes, Liberal, Brossard—La Prairie, QC]

But legislation—would there be any other issues we could help you with, in terms of giving you a broader mandate, or is there anything legally we could help you with?

[A/Commr Peter Henschel]

I don't think so, directly, for us. I think if you are looking at this more broadly from a public safety perspective, one question you could ask is whether or not there should be a requirement, for example, for fingerprints to be submitted—a requirement that they be submitted and within a certain time period, for example. Again, that's a broader public policy issue.

[Alexandra Mendes, Liberal, Brossard—La Prairie, QC]

Thank you.

[Andrew Kania, Liberal, Brampton West, ON]

As a broad question, if I'm an employer, and I require somebody to have a criminal records check, and they go—whether it's the basic one or the more detailed one—and they provide me with the form, would you be able to warrant that it's accurate? Could people actually rely upon that to protect their businesses, to protect their organizations, etc., from persons who may be a risk?

[A/Commr Peter Henschel]

If it's done properly, it's accurate. It's one of the reasons why, I mentioned in my opening comments, in late 2009 we realized, through audits of CPIC, that processes weren't being followed, and part of the risk around that was that meant that the products being offered out there weren't necessarily accurate. But if the proper procedures are followed, the products will be accurate.

I will say that while we have a backlog and have challenges that way, one of the reasons that contributes to that is because we have very high accuracy, or we hold the criminal record system to the absolute highest standards because we know that we can't afford to make mistakes with it. When we go through the process and say “here's an up-to-date record”, it is up to date and accurate for what has been submitted to us from police forces and the courts across the country.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kevin Sorenson]

Thank you, Mr. Henschel.

Mr. Rathgeber, please.

[Brent Rathgeber, Conservative, Edmonton—St. Albert, AB]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you to the witnesses for your attendance today and for the good work that you do in keeping Canadians safe.

I have a couple of questions. In response to one of Ms. Mendes' questions, I think you indicated that there's a 5,000% increase in requests for these vulnerable sector checks. Did I hear that correctly?

[A/Commr Peter Henschel]

There's been an increase of I think 5,900% in the number of fingerprints that need to be submitted as part of vulnerable sector verifications.

[Brent Rathgeber, Conservative, Edmonton—St. Albert, AB]

I just know from my own experience in my own constituency, virtually all of the minor sports associations are requiring vulnerable sector checks for coaches and sometimes referees. Is it your experience that that's becoming standard operating procedure for the minor sporting associations from coast to coast? I'm guessing that's why the huge increase in requests.

[A/Commr Peter Henschel]

I think, generally speaking, that there is probably much more awareness of the requirement for organizations to ensure that they're protecting those in the vulnerable sector for whom they have responsibility. I would think that yes, that is accurate. But it's also up to those organizations to determine...they set the standards of what they expect; it's not the RCMP that sets the standards. The organizations set the standard as to who, how often, those kinds of things.