Evidence of meeting #56 for Public Safety and National Security in the 40th Parliament, 3rd session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was costs.
A recording is available from Parliament.
Conservative
Conservative
Liberal
Andrew Kania Liberal Brampton West, ON
Okay.
So we have these various things, in terms of Bill C-59, once again challenging the government to be tougher on crime and to help victims in a meaningful way. I think it would have been better if that had been there.
I just bring those to your attention.
Now, going back to—
Conservative
Vic Toews Conservative Provencher, MB
So I can't respond to that? Because I want to say that I agree with you, especially on the issue of restitution. The party that made that restitution non-automatic was the Liberal Party in 1995, when it was government, when, instead of allowing the courts to enforce a restitution order as part of a suspended sentence, you would then have to go and sue civilly. That was a specific change that your government made in 1995, which was a terrible mistake for victims.
Liberal
Andrew Kania Liberal Brampton West, ON
—when it comes to all of the responses in the House of Commons and all of this, it wears thin to speak of what happened in the past when somebody's been in government for five years. Rather than having closure on a bill that doesn't help victims, I would suggest to you that it would have been closure, if you're going to invoke that, for a piece of legislation that actually would help victims, as they agreed.
Conservative
Vic Toews Conservative Provencher, MB
I'm glad that the Liberal Party of Canada has come around to seeing--
Liberal
Conservative
Vic Toews Conservative Provencher, MB
--that the mistake they made back in 1995 in respect of restitution is a good one. And quite frankly, if you want to bring something like that forward, I will seriously consider it.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Kevin Sorenson
Thank you, Mr. Minister.
We'll now move to Mr. Rathgeber, please.
Conservative
Brent Rathgeber Conservative Edmonton—St. Albert, AB
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
Thank you, Minister Toews and Mr. Head.
Mr. Head, in the first hour of this meeting we heard from the Parliamentary Budget Officer, Mr. Page, with regard to his estimates concerning the cost of prison construction. He had some numbers, and he admitted that his analysis was based on assumptions and models.
He told us--and it's in his brief--that the average cost of an inmate is $160,000 per year, but there are huge variances in those numbers. Annex III to his statement is called “Impact of Crime Legislation on Penitentiaries”. He assumes that the cost per woman inmate per year is $340,000. The cost for a man in maximum security is $220,000 per year.
You've testified before this committee a number of times, and I've heard you tell this committee what the cost of housing an inmate is. My recollection is that it is a fraction of that. I recall numbers in the $120,000 range with respect to a male in maximum security. Can you refresh my memory on actual cost?
Second, do you have any idea where Mr. Page came up with these numbers?
Commissioner, Correctional Service of Canada
Thanks for the question.
To give you the latest breakdown of what we call COMO, the cost of maintaining an offender, at the maximum security level the cost is $150,000 a year, $150,808 to be exact; at medium security, $98,219; in minimum security, $95,038; for women it's $211,093; and for exchange-of-service agreements our average cost is $89,800. That is for when we enter into agreements with the provinces. So an average annual cost for housing in a federal penitentiary facility is $113,974.
Based on what I've seen from the Parliamentary Budget Officer and a subsequent discussion with him, he has included capital costs, which we would not include. I think he's taken into account in his numbers buildings that we've had in place for 40, 50, or 100 years. I'm not absolutely sure, but based on some of the numbers we've seen and analyzed, that appears to be the case.
Conservative
Brent Rathgeber Conservative Edmonton—St. Albert, AB
So he's amortizing the cost of construction over the short period during which the inmate is incarcerated?
Conservative
Brent Rathgeber Conservative Edmonton—St. Albert, AB
I take it that the numbers you just cited, which are significantly lower than the ones Mr. Page used in his analysis, are readily publicly available.
Commissioner, Correctional Service of Canada
Yes, we make them available every year.
Conservative
Brent Rathgeber Conservative Edmonton—St. Albert, AB
If Mr. Page had asked for those numbers, you obviously would have provided them for him or he probably could have gotten them off the website?
Commissioner, Correctional Service of Canada
Yes, and they were available, as has been pointed out in previous testimony at other committees.
Conservative
Brent Rathgeber Conservative Edmonton—St. Albert, AB
The minister indicated that the numbers with respect to the current increase in people incarcerated are actually lower than what was forecasted by your commission. I know you forecast for annual actual increases in your population.
Do you know what accounts for the variance and why there are actually fewer prisoners in population today than what you predicted at the beginning of the year?
Commissioner, Correctional Service of Canada
One of the assumptions we made was the rate at which the courts would pick up the changes in the legislation. At this time it does not appear that the rate at which we assumed that would occur has taken hold. We continue to analyze and modify our numbers accordingly.
As the minister has pointed out, if there are significant changes in our numbers as we go through the next year, moneys will be frozen. There will be future determinations as to whether those moneys can be invested in, for example, some of the outdated infrastructure or other programs that can be invested in or whether they can be returned to the treasury.