Public Safety Committee on Feb. 17th, 2011

[Mark Holland, Liberal, Ajax—Pickering, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you, Minister, for appearing today.

Minister, I'm sure you appreciate that my time is brief. I'm going to ask a number of questions. If you could be as concise as you could, that would be appreciated.

Mr. Minister, as you're aware, your government engaged the services of the Parliamentary Budget Officer. You gave the Parliamentary Budget Officer a mandate to allow Parliament to see clearly into the nation's finances, to make sure that when Parliament made decisions, it had accurate and clear information.

That same Parliamentary Budget Officer has said, and I quote, “There is genuine concern that Parliament is losing control of its fiduciary responsibilities”. He's made it very clear that his own office finds it impossible to get information and that he was stonewalled on Bill C-25 for some eight months and forced to make statistical models to go after information that he couldn't otherwise get. And after eight months, the Parliamentary Budget Officer on just one bill—and I will remind you, Minister, that we have 24 before the House--the Truth in Sentencing Act, said that the cost was going to be $5 billion over five years for the federal government and some $5 billion to $8 billion for the provinces.

You had said there would be virtually no cost to the provinces. Initially, your quote, when you were asked on February 15, was, “We're not exactly sure how much it will cost us.... There are some low estimates, and some that would see more spent—not more than $90 million.” That's where the $90 million comes from.

Now, Minister, you've subsequently said it will be $2 billion for the whole shooting match, so here's the question: if the Parliamentary Budget Officer is wrong, how is he wrong, and where is your data to back that up?

[Vic Toews, Conservative, Provencher, MB]

Let me deal with the $90 million first of all. That came up in a discussion in the course of a scrum. They were asking me about an appropriation, and I confirmed that the $90 million was in fact appropriated for that particular fiscal year.

[Mark Holland, Liberal, Ajax—Pickering, ON]

Okay, but let's take that and move along, and say my question with respect to the PBO—

[Vic Toews, Conservative, Provencher, MB]

Let me just finish that.

[Mark Holland, Liberal, Ajax—Pickering, ON]

Well, no, if I could—

[Vic Toews, Conservative, Provencher, MB]

It's an issue you continue to raise, and you do it in a deliberate, erroneous manner, and I've indicated this over and over again. You continue to mislead members of the public. You continue to mislead the House. And quite frankly, I will continue to repeat that answer until you finally understand the context of that $90-million quote and the fact that I have never been offside from what the correctional head has indicated in respect of the cost, $2.1 billion.

[Mark Holland, Liberal, Ajax—Pickering, ON]

Minister, I will happily, if you can provide us with any background information.... Here is the PBO report, which is some 120 pages long. He goes into detailed analysis for one bill. It costs many, many billions more than even the estimate you're providing today, and that's for one bill. Your $2 billion is in total. There are 24 other bills. So my question very simply is why can you not provide a contrary opinion to this so that we can look at your assumptions and his assumptions and see who is right?

[Vic Toews, Conservative, Provencher, MB]

To the extent that figures can be released, I'll have Commissioner Head address that issue. But I do want to indicate that from what we've seen here, for example, today, in terms of the forecast of new prisoners or additional prisoners, there seems to be an assumption--and you've repeated this consistently in the House--that there are somehow going to be thousands of new prisoners coming into the system.

What these acts do is deal with sentencing; they don't deal with creating new crimes.

[Mark Holland, Liberal, Ajax—Pickering, ON]

Minister, if I could--

[Vic Toews, Conservative, Provencher, MB]

No, wait. Let me finish.

It doesn't deal with the issue of thousands of new prisoners. What it does is ensure that instead of prisoners taking a vacation for a short period of time between sentences to commit more offences, they stay in prison, and they do not commit crimes during the time they are in prison. This essentially eliminates the vacation that they receive--

[Mark Holland, Liberal, Ajax—Pickering, ON]

Minister, with respect, that is not my question.

[Vic Toews, Conservative, Provencher, MB]

No, it is.

[Mark Holland, Liberal, Ajax—Pickering, ON]

Minister, it's not my question. What you're talking about--

[The Chair, Conservative, Kevin Sorenson]

Let him finish here. You have asked the question. We'll give him a minute to answer.

[Mark Holland, Liberal, Ajax—Pickering, ON]

Minister, I'm trying to get an answer to the questions. Minister, with respect--

[Vic Toews, Conservative, Provencher, MB]

It's very pertinent to your question, because the estimates now, for example--and I took Correctional Service of Canada's estimates--

[Mark Holland, Liberal, Ajax—Pickering, ON]

I'm sorry, Mr. Chair. I only have four minutes. I'm going to have to interrupt. I'm sorry.

Minister, let me be very direct. First of all, this stuff was tried in California and it was a disaster. Let's not even go there. I want numbers--

[Vic Toews, Conservative, Provencher, MB]

I'm not familiar.... What are you meaning? Let's talk about California.

[Mark Holland, Liberal, Ajax—Pickering, ON]

I'm asking on Bill C-4, Bill C-5, Bill C-16, Bill C-17, Bill C-21, Bill C-22, Bill C-23B, Bill C-30, Bill C-35, Bill C-37, Bill C-38, Bill C-39, Bill C-43, Bill C-48, Bill C-49, Bill C-50, Bill C-51, Bill C-52, Bill C-53C-54, Bill C-59, Bill SS-6, Bill S-7, Bill S-10.

What are the costs? What are the head counts? What are the implications? Why won't you give them to Parliament?

[Vic Toews, Conservative, Provencher, MB]

There it is. Now let me finish the answer.

You ask what the head counts are. These are the bases upon which we make our estimates.

[Mark Holland, Liberal, Ajax—Pickering, ON]

So what are they, Minister? Let's go through the bills. Let's start with Bill C-4--

[Vic Toews, Conservative, Provencher, MB]

Wait, wait, wait. I've told you. I've told you.

[Mark Holland, Liberal, Ajax—Pickering, ON]

What's the head count and what's the estimated cost implication?

[The Chair, Conservative, Kevin Sorenson]

Let the minister answer the question. I've given you time, Mr. Holland, to ask the question. We'll now give the minister time to answer the question.

[Vic Toews, Conservative, Provencher, MB]

I've told you that the estimates were 1,280 additional offenders on the basis of the legislation as passed on February of last year.