Evidence of meeting #58 for Public Safety and National Security in the 40th Parliament, 3rd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was rate.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Asa Hutchinson  Former U.S. Congressman, As an Individual
Justin Piché  PhD Candidate (Sociology), Carleton University, As an Individual
Irvin Waller  Full Professor, Institute for Prevention of Crime, University of Ottawa and President, International Organization for Victim Assistance, As an Individual
Ian Lee  Carleton University, As an Individual

9:35 a.m.

Former U.S. Congressman, As an Individual

Asa Hutchinson

This is a great challenge, and I'll answer it by simply referring to one of the principles of our “right on crime” initiative, which is that the criminal justice system must be transparent and include performance measures that hold it accountable for its results in protecting the public, lowering crime rates, reducing reoffending, collecting victim restitution, and conserving taxpayers' money. That sounds easy, but you have to define what performance measures you want to accomplish and then set your priorities based upon that.

I'll give you an example of why I think it's so tough. You say we should not incarcerate those who are engaged just in property crimes or economic crimes. I think of Bernie Madoff in the United States. His were property crimes. They were economic crimes that hurt so many people, and society cried out and said this is a guy who ought to go to jail. Many of those are handled at the federal level, but at the state level drug crimes are an issue.

I would agree we're re-evaluating so you don't send just the average person that has an addiction problem to jail. That's not the objective. But if your motivation is economics, if it's selling to teenagers, and you have a long history of that, there's certainly a point there at which you have to have incarceration. So you have to set your performance measures. Those are difficult to define, but you start there, and then you judge your investment based upon that.

9:40 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Kevin Sorenson

Thank you, Mr. Hutchinson.

Mr. Piché, please.

9:40 a.m.

PhD Candidate (Sociology), Carleton University, As an Individual

Justin Piché

To answer that question I would point to the overall increase in CSC's budget since 2005-06. The budget then was $1.597 billion. The main estimates just came out a few days ago. The budget is $2.981 billion. That's up over 86%. During that same period capital construction has gone from $138.2 million to $517.5 million this coming year. That's up 374%.

During this period, did victim standing improve by 86% in this country? I don't think it has.

9:40 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Kevin Sorenson

Thank you, Mr. Piché.

We'll now move to Madam Mourani, please.

9:40 a.m.

Bloc

Maria Mourani Bloc Ahuntsic, QC

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I would like to thank all of you for being here today to give us some insight into the costs of prisons and crime, in general. I would like some clarification on a few points.

Mr. Piché, you said in your presentation that, in 2008-2009, nearly 6 out of every 10 prisoners admitted to provincial and territorial prisons were on remand. Do you know the breakdown of those prisoners by province and territory? Also, do you have the breakdown by institution?

9:40 a.m.

PhD Candidate (Sociology), Carleton University, As an Individual

Justin Piché

I do not have that information here.

9:40 a.m.

Bloc

Maria Mourani Bloc Ahuntsic, QC

But do you have it?

9:40 a.m.

PhD Candidate (Sociology), Carleton University, As an Individual

Justin Piché

It was taken from a document by the Province of Nova Scotia.

9:40 a.m.

Bloc

Maria Mourani Bloc Ahuntsic, QC

Could you provide the committee with that document?

9:40 a.m.

PhD Candidate (Sociology), Carleton University, As an Individual

Justin Piché

Yes, I could send it this afternoon when I get home.

9:40 a.m.

Bloc

Maria Mourani Bloc Ahuntsic, QC

I have another question. You also said that the double-bunking rate had gone up. You said it was at 9.4% in August, and you attributed that increase to a sharp rise in the anticipated rate owing to the implementation of the Truth in Sentencing Act. Did I understand that correctly?

9:40 a.m.

PhD Candidate (Sociology), Carleton University, As an Individual

Justin Piché

No, what I said was, in August 2009, the double-bunking rate was at 9.4%. Six months prior, I believe it was at 9.7%, so it did drop slightly. I have a Correctional Service of Canada document basically stating that because of the Truth in Sentencing Act, the double-bunking rate was expected to increase significantly. In August 2010, CSC suspended Commissioner's Directive No. 550 because the double-bunking rate was expected to increase by up to 20%.

9:40 a.m.

Bloc

Maria Mourani Bloc Ahuntsic, QC

Because of what? I did not understand that.

9:40 a.m.

PhD Candidate (Sociology), Carleton University, As an Individual

Justin Piché

The Truth in Sentencing Act.

9:40 a.m.

Bloc

Maria Mourani Bloc Ahuntsic, QC

Because of the Truth in Sentencing Act?

9:40 a.m.

PhD Candidate (Sociology), Carleton University, As an Individual

9:40 a.m.

Bloc

Maria Mourani Bloc Ahuntsic, QC

Do you have any examples from other countries? Mr. Waller or Mr. Piché, do other countries have this measure, which doubles the amount of time served, or just Canada?

9:40 a.m.

PhD Candidate (Sociology), Carleton University, As an Individual

Justin Piché

I have no idea.

9:40 a.m.

Bloc

Maria Mourani Bloc Ahuntsic, QC

You do not know.

9:40 a.m.

Full Professor, Institute for Prevention of Crime, University of Ottawa and President, International Organization for Victim Assistance, As an Individual

Irvin Waller

I am not aware of a similar measure elsewhere.

9:40 a.m.

Bloc

Maria Mourani Bloc Ahuntsic, QC

Very well. I was wondering whether anyone else had such a measure in place and how they administered it.

9:40 a.m.

Full Professor, Institute for Prevention of Crime, University of Ottawa and President, International Organization for Victim Assistance, As an Individual

Irvin Waller

It is very important to understand that the increased use of remand in Canada has far surpassed international standards. For instance, I have done some work for think tanks in England, and the proportion of inmates in remand is much lower there. With the exception of Saskatchewan, the situation in Canada is at a crisis level because we did not limit the use of that detention measure.

9:45 a.m.

Bloc

Maria Mourani Bloc Ahuntsic, QC

But you cannot confirm whether this measure is in place elsewhere. I would appreciate it if the analysts could provide that information. Could we research that to determine whether it exists only in Canada or whether it is in place in other countries as well?

You also said there were 18 bills. Mr. Piché, you indicated that the government estimated the cost of those 18 bills to be $2.7 billion over five years. Is that correct? What is your estimate of what those 18 bills will cost?

Do you have any information on that, Mr. Waller?

9:45 a.m.

PhD Candidate (Sociology), Carleton University, As an Individual

Justin Piché

In my research, I did not make any cost estimates, but I did collect data from the provinces, territories and federal government. That Excel document did not contain any figures for the provinces or territories. So, based on that document, does that mean that there are no costs associated with the bill? I don't think so. To my mind, those figures should appear in the document.

9:45 a.m.

Bloc

Maria Mourani Bloc Ahuntsic, QC

You are saying that the document did not contain the cost estimates for the provinces and territories.