Public Safety Committee on March 3rd, 2011

[Prof. Ian Lee]

Yes. By the way, on the capital costs, I don't have data, and I would love to have data, because I'm a data person. I am certain your costs will go down. Your cost of running a new prison that is under 20 years old is going to be far cheaper, I hypothesize, than running a 100-year-old prison. Your operating costs on old equipment, old plant, are much higher. It is a prudent decision to replace old, archaic, obsolete, out-of-date plant and equipment with modern investments.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kevin Sorenson]

Thank you.

You have 30 seconds.

[Ben Lobb, Conservative, Huron—Bruce, ON]

Mr. Piché, I have another question for you. I don't know if you're familiar with Bill C-59, which is the accelerated parole bill. Do you support that bill? Do you have any thoughts on that bill?

[Justin Piché]

In terms of abolishing APR?

[Ben Lobb, Conservative, Huron—Bruce, ON]

Do you think fraudsters and drug mules and people who have grow ops in their houses should be eligible for accelerated parole?

[Justin Piché]

In terms of fraudsters, I guess what I would ask is, is putting someone in prison going to get that $100 million back that the person stole from people? I think we should be focusing on giving people back their livelihoods, as opposed to focusing our attention on that.

[Ben Lobb, Conservative, Huron—Bruce, ON]

Thank you. I think it's clear that you feel people like--

[The Chair, Conservative, Kevin Sorenson]

Thank you.

We'll now move over to Madam Jennings, please.

[Marlene Jennings, Liberal, Notre-Dame-de-Grâce—Lachine, QC]

Mr. Piché, I believe that you may have wanted to continue your response when the chair, because of time limits, had to cut down the questioning, so I invite you to take up part of my time.

How many minutes do I have?

[The Chair, Conservative, Kevin Sorenson]

Five minutes.

[Marlene Jennings, Liberal, Notre-Dame-de-Grâce—Lachine, QC]

Take part of my five minutes. I'd say a minute and a half should be sufficient.

Mr. Hutchinson, I'd like to come back to the position that more conservatives, and in the United States they're called Republicans, have taken about the incarceration policies. You have said that for individuals who, for instance, are first-time offenders involved in drug use, drug trafficking, in fact incarceration may not be the best thing. There are drug courts where they are diverted into the community, etc. I'd like to hear more from you about those kinds of community-based programs that are well supervised.

Mr. Piché.

[Justin Piché]

Of course you're free to clarify, but I guess one of the things that is implicitly being raised is that if we have poor prison conditions or ageing prisons, we should build new ones. I'd like to note that historically benevolent penal reforms have been the principal force behind prison expansion in this country, as is the case right now in many of our provinces and territories. History is littered with calls for new prisons to address overcrowding, improve hygienic conditions, and enhance rehabilitation efforts inside prison.

However, I'd also like to say to the committee that chasing so-called better prisons leads to a further retrenchment in society, which becomes all the more visible when the facilities that were slated for closure remain open. Look at Kingston Penitentiary, for example, which was built in 1835, as the member noted. The institution has been slated for closure a handful of times, but it has remained open, despite the fact that it was damaged beyond recognition in a 1971 riot.

We have a tendency to focus on carceral supply in this country rather than trying to focus on how we can quell the demand for more prisons and reduce victimization. It's why I've been advocating for alternatives.

If you're in the kitchen doing the dishes and the water is overflowing, what do you do? Do you turn off the tap? Do you pull the strainer? Do you run to Home Depot to build a bigger sink? I'm sure most of you don't run to Home Depot, but it's the approach we're taking right now, with 2,500 additional beds, through retrofits and additions to existing ageing institutions.

I predict that based on history—and predictions are known to be wrong and known to be right sometimes—if we build the new regional complexes that were recommended in the 2007 review panel, in the way these penal policies are being moved forward, they will not replace Kingston Penitentiary, Stony Mountain, Dorchester Penitentiary, and the other ageing facilities that we have.

In relation to Kevin Page's projection being dramatically off and CSC's projection being dramatically off, through the Truth in Sentencing Act, if only 400 additional prisoners were added to the federal prison population as a result of the act, what is the impact of that act and where will all the prisoners go? Will they stay in provincial and territorial prisons, where they were supposed to be lifted out to alleviate the remand issue for the provinces? I don't know, but I think we need to ask those questions.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kevin Sorenson]

Thank you.

Mr. Hutchinson, you have the last word today. Go ahead, sir.

[Asa Hutchinson]

Thank you for the opportunity to talk more about the “right on crime” initiative. It is motivated by a conservative view of taxpayer dollars and fairness. Some who are involved in the prison fellowship are faith-based organizations that are really concerned about the offender and how we treat our responsibility to those who are incarcerated.

I think the drug courts are a good example of something we've learned that works better. One, it's not a one-size-fits-all approach. States do it differently and have different criteria as to who can qualify for it.

They're generally non-violent. I wouldn't say a drug trafficker would generally qualify for it. They're more serious offenders, but they'd be non-violent. It could be someone who was arrested for writing bad cheques or stealing money, but the root of the problem is drug addiction. It could be property crime, but it's identified as an addiction problem. Incarceration is deferred and they won't have to go as long as they fulfill the terms of a year-long program, reporting, drug-testing, etc. Through that accountability, with jail hanging over their heads, they straighten their lives around.

It starts with an arrest, and that's what is interesting. I've been to a drug treatment court graduation where the arresting officer is the first person who the graduate thanks. It's quite a scene.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kevin Sorenson]

Thank you very much, Mr. Hutchinson.

Thank you indeed to all for attending today. Mr. Lee, Mr. Waller, Mr. Piché, and Mr. Hutchinson, your expertise in this field has certainly been appreciated by our committee. We thank you for being here today.

We are adjourned.