Public Safety Committee on April 1st, 2010

[Bruce Penner]

Yes, absolutely, and you of course have the singular benefit of having actually been able to see it on the screen.

If it would serve the committee's purpose, and I certainly don't want to impose in any way, I would be more than willing to go through the effort of doing those translations, and being able to come back at some future point and more effectively inform the complete committee. I will absolutely take your guidance on that.

[The Chair, Conservative, Garry Breitkreuz]

Let me interrupt here for a minute.

We can actually translate and distribute it to the committee. You've given us a copy in English. Thank you.

[Shelly Glover, Conservative, Saint Boniface, MB]

The other thing I found very interesting was the fact that you can actually track things that have been tried and the results from these trials. For example, we talk a lot about segregation with regard to mentally ill people in the corrections system. it's very important, from what our witnesses have said, to know exactly how they react to segregation. Some willingly ask for segregation for particular reasons. Again, if they're transferred from jurisdiction to jurisdiction, that information is invaluable, I believe, to making sure they get the treatment that will help them become more proficient in their lifespan. Our goal, of course, is to help them free themselves of the criminal justice system and to be able to be productive individuals.

I did want to share that with the committee, because I did have an opportunity to see the slides. I believe that this could be potentially an answer to that question of continuum of care that continually is coming up. Everyone seems to acknowledge there is a gap in communication between every agency that deals with the mentally ill person.

Can you tell me, is anyone using a similar copy of what you have produced right now?

[Bruce Penner]

Yes. The continuing care solution, which is a platform that exists across the continuum of care, has been in place in various jurisdictions for 15 years. Most specifically, this recent module for community mental health is now going live in Winnipeg, and as I mentioned earlier, we have significant expressions of interest from around the world for deploying this.

Where the interest comes with the community mental health module is the ability to integrate it within the home care and long-term-care systems, although not so much within the palliative care system, but essentially across those other forums of care. There is the opportunity to also integrate it into the correctional system, where, again, mental health is clearly a significant element of the interaction.

[Shelly Glover, Conservative, Saint Boniface, MB]

There is an essence of it having already been somewhat tried and true, and now we're just building on it to include perhaps corrections and mental illness and what not.

I just want to correct what Mr. Kennedy had to say, in saying that the money is flowing. I know that electronic records in fact exist in many provinces. I'm not entirely sure why Mr. Kennedy believed otherwise. Nevertheless, it is flowing and it is actually improving the situation in our health care system across the country. I believe there may be an opportunity here to help in the corrections area as well as with other stakeholders who become involved with people who suffer from mental illness and addiction, including police officers and parole officers, etc.

I have a technical question. Do I still have a couple--

[The Chair, Conservative, Garry Breitkreuz]

Very briefly.

[Shelly Glover, Conservative, Saint Boniface, MB]

Then I won't ask it, because it's going to take more time. I know there was a slide presented, but I really do think if you have an opportunity to see this program, it could be an answer to many of the questions about continuum of care that we've addressed here.

[The Chair, Conservative, Garry Breitkreuz]

Thank you very much.

Ms. Mourani.

[Maria Mourani, Bloc, Ahuntsic, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Good afternoon, Mr. Penner. Thank you for coming to talk about your project. I must admit that I do not really understand. Obviously, it is a bit more difficult without the transparencies.

Does your software make it possible to gather all the information about a person with mental health problems?

[Bruce Penner]

Yes.

[Maria Mourani, Bloc, Ahuntsic, QC]

It is like an electronic chart. Is that right?

[Bruce Penner]

That is correct. It gives you an electronic record of what you would otherwise store in a paper chart. In some instances, it is implemented so that it can be complementary to a paper chart. In other words, some processes can remain in a paper form, and some processes that are intended to be shareable or widely distributed can be in electronic form. In some instances, we have deployed the software in a completely paperless environment, where there is in fact no paper.

[Maria Mourani, Bloc, Ahuntsic, QC]

If I understand correctly—tell me if I am wrong—your system is presently used in health care in Winnipeg, in community organizations.

[Bruce Penner]

Correct. It's just beginning.

[Maria Mourani, Bloc, Ahuntsic, QC]

It is a start.

[Bruce Penner]

Yes.

[Maria Mourani, Bloc, Ahuntsic, QC]

You know that the Correctional Service already has a computer system called OMS, the Offender Management System. Do you know that system?

[Bruce Penner]

I am not.

[Maria Mourani, Bloc, Ahuntsic, QC]

It is a system that contains reasonably complete records of the offenders.

Generally, in health care, in hospitals—in Quebec at least, since I cannot speak for Manitoba—most records are computerized, but not all. I feel that there is still work to be done there.

I am trying to understand a bit how a system like yours would be beneficial for the Correctional Service. I am not able to understand that. I am trying to understand it.

[Bruce Penner]

I have one question. The system you referred to in the correctional system is a health care system, or is it limited to the correctional...?

[Maria Mourani, Bloc, Ahuntsic, QC]

It is a complete offender management system. It has all the psychiatric and psychological records, the correctional plans, the notes of the case management officers and of the prison guards. Everything is there, and of course, the paper records are essential; they are also there.

For example, each health care unit has what we call a cardex, where records are updated and followed daily. Does that sound a bit like what you are doing?

[Bruce Penner]

So I now understand what is in place. The challenge that I see with the system--and you are obviously much more informed than I am about what is in place--is really the bridge between the correctional system and the community. I am not here to speak at all about whether or not the system you have in place inside the correctional facilities is an effective system. I can't speak to that.

This exists not just between the correctional systems and the community, it exists between psychiatric hospitals and the community as well. I know this first-hand. Again, it will be different from one province to the next. You are very familiar with Quebec. I am very familiar with Manitoba. But I know there are real challenges with the information flowing from the community into the psychiatric hospitals, and from the psychiatric hospitals back to the community. I am sure that is also true with the correctional system.

[Maria Mourani, Bloc, Ahuntsic, QC]

You are raising an interesting point. From what I understand, your system allows you to keep groups, organizations, the hospital and other hospitals connected. There is a continuity in the information regardless of the organization.

What worries me is that the computerized system of the Correctional Service is currently internal, which means that only the branches of the Correctional Service have access to this system. So the hospital does not have access to the offender management system.

But do you not think that, due to data confidentiality, exchanging information could be a bit problematic?

[The Chair, Conservative, Garry Breitkreuz]

I'm sorry, but there won't even be time. We'll have to stop.

Do you have a brief comment, sir?

[Bruce Penner]

I have a very simple comment. The answer is, absolutely, you are right. The challenge is not on the technology side. The computers can share the information that you choose to share securely. The challenge is on agreeing to share; that's the challenge.