Public Safety Committee on April 1st, 2010

[Don Davies, NDP, Vancouver Kingsway, BC]

Mr. Chairman, will we get five minutes for the New Democrats? How about five minutes for each party?

[Mark Holland, Liberal, Ajax—Pickering, ON]

Again, this is an issue of protocol. I have never in my life seen this before.

[The Chair, Conservative, Garry Breitkreuz]

Well, we haven't done this before.

[Mark Holland, Liberal, Ajax—Pickering, ON]

Well, we've done it in other committees. I'm just confused.

[The Chair, Conservative, Garry Breitkreuz]

I just thought it was the fairest way to give everybody a turn and then you keep going down the list.

[Mark Holland, Liberal, Ajax—Pickering, ON]

All right, fine. But really in the future let's please correct this. You start with the list when you have a new set of witnesses.

[The Chair, Conservative, Garry Breitkreuz]

I can try to give every party five minutes, if that's your wish. But I've been doing this and nobody objected.

Mr. Rathgeber, I'll let you start again and then we'll come over to the Liberals.

[Brent Rathgeber, Conservative, Edmonton—St. Albert, AB]

Thank you, Mr. Chair. I'm sorry that I have to start over again.

The duty to accommodate is basically what you're advocating for, to accommodate individuals with addictions inside our prison population. Is that correct?

[Sandra Ka Hon Chu]

Yes. I'm basically providing them with the same tools that people in the community already have.

[Brent Rathgeber, Conservative, Edmonton—St. Albert, AB]

Would you not agree with me, though, that the duty to accommodate is inconsistent with the stated goals of prevention and treating addiction?

[Sandra Ka Hon Chu]

I don't believe so, and I think that's not recognized in the community, when we have needle and syringe programs available for people with addictions.

[Brent Rathgeber, Conservative, Edmonton—St. Albert, AB]

I understand that those programs exist in the community, but that's not my question. My question is, is the duty to accommodate not inconsistent with the stated goals of dealing with addiction and prevention?

[Sandra Ka Hon Chu]

I don't believe so. I believe that for many people there is not a willingness or perhaps availability of treatment. In those cases, when there are needle and syringe programs available, they reduce the risk of hepatitis C and HIV infection.

[Brent Rathgeber, Conservative, Edmonton—St. Albert, AB]

I read your report about there never being a reported case of a syringe or a needle being used as a weapon. But you are aware that very, very few assaults within prison are actually reported to prison officials.

[Sandra Ka Hon Chu]

These are based on the systematic evaluations that have been undertaken in prisons where they've existed. So I would assume that they would take actual consideration of that issue, since it has been raised by correctional officers as something that they fear.

[Brent Rathgeber, Conservative, Edmonton—St. Albert, AB]

Right. So you're acknowledging that correctional officers have stated their objection to this type of program on the very ground that they're concerned about their own safety and about the safety of other inmates.

[Sandra Ka Hon Chu]

This was the case in Germany and Switzerland. In those cases, as I mentioned during my opening statement, they did state that fear, and the fear wasn't realized. In time, they came to support those programs.

[Brent Rathgeber, Conservative, Edmonton—St. Albert, AB]

Have you talked to Canadian prison officials or union leaders as to whether they have a concern about a needle exchange program within federal penitentiaries?

[Sandra Ka Hon Chu]

I have not personally. My colleague at the legal network who was working on prison issues before me has spoken, and I believe that's their primary concern as well, the institutional safety.

[Brent Rathgeber, Conservative, Edmonton—St. Albert, AB]

You acknowledge that it is a concern.

[Sandra Ka Hon Chu]

Yes.

[Brent Rathgeber, Conservative, Edmonton—St. Albert, AB]

Who would pay for the needles?

[Sandra Ka Hon Chu]

It depends. There are different models in the different countries. In the less-well-resourced systems, in Kyrgyzstan and Moldova, the Global Fund to Fight AIDS, Tuberculosis and Malaria pays for it. The minister of justice in Spain pays for the distribution of needles. In some cases, the external NGOs that already provide needle exchange programs in the community continue that practice and get extended funding to deliver in prisons.

[Brent Rathgeber, Conservative, Edmonton—St. Albert, AB]

Since you're advocating for a needle exchange program in Canadian prisons, who would pay for them under such a program?

[Sandra Ka Hon Chu]

I believe we would require a pilot to determine which method of delivery would be the most effective. But what we've heard from many prisoners is the need for confidentiality, and perhaps either someone from the health unit or external NGOs providing that would be preferable to correctional officers or staff who are otherwise not associated with the health unit.