Public Safety Committee on April 15th, 2010

[Rob Oliphant, Liberal, Don Valley West, ON]

That's my dilemma. Right there is my dilemma, because we've had a number of independent inquiries that have suggested changes. We have a government that has not acted on them. You've been appointed, and we can't tell whether it's to make change or to keep the status quo. That's exactly my dilemma. I'm trying to get the status of Mr. Justice O'Connor's desire for change and whether you have any indication that the government is working on that. I'm trying to understand whether your appointment is to keep the government happy or to effect change.

[Ian McPhail]

I was invited to be frank and open as to what changes I thought were appropriate. I have attempted to do that in my remarks today by outlining five broad areas. Certainly I'd be happy to go through those broad areas in greater detail. Whether all my suggestions are accepted by Parliament is not something I can predict.

[Rob Oliphant, Liberal, Don Valley West, ON]

Your predecessor was pretty blunt in saying to us that the budget of the RCMP had expanded exponentially, but the budget of the watchdog agency had not. The amount of work being done to oversee it needed to expand proportionately, but it hadn't kept up. The mandate of the RCMP had grown, but there had been some tremendous deficiencies found in these commissions.

It's been very strongly stated that the excellence is not there. That's why we need a stronger oversight body. It is to have it become more excellent. We are committed to a stronger and better RCMP through oversight. I'm just not hearing that it really is your mandate to get that done.

[The Vice-Chair, Liberal, Mark Holland]

We'll have to take that as a comment for the time being rather than a question.

We'll turn to Ms. Glover for five minutes.

[Shelly Glover, Conservative, Saint Boniface, MB]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I want to welcome all our witnesses here today.

Sir, I am very glad to meet you.

It's an honour to meet you, because I have heard many times of the good work you've done, not only presently but in the past. I congratulate you and thank you for your service, and the other two witnesses, who I'm sure are working very hard doing their new work.

I want to follow up on something you said earlier. You mentioned, and I thought it was very interesting, that you've made 40 decisions to date. You've been there only a short time--since January. I'm interested in knowing what other activities you've undertaken since you came into the vice-chair role. Clearly, even though there is still a mandate outstanding that is being worked on—and it is being worked on—you've obviously done quite a bit of work. Please enlighten us about the things you've been engaged in.

[Ian McPhail]

I will try.

I can say that it's fascinating work. First of all, with respect to the decisions, each one of them has been a very interesting slice of life. You see the decisions that have to be made by police officers on the job. I'm well aware that you don't want to be in the position of second guessing, but I can also see areas where police officers aren't given the right tools to do the job in terms of training and so forth.

Focusing on what else I've been involved with, I had the opportunity to speak to RCMP officers in Alberta. I visited the intake centre, which is in Surrey, British Columbia. I met with the staff there and was briefed by them.

I have met with the commissioner to discuss our respective roles. That was a productive meeting. We've agreed to remain in regular contact.

[Shelly Glover, Conservative, Saint Boniface, MB]

By regular, do you mean you set a timeline?

[Ian McPhail]

We're going to do that probably quarterly.

I've had the opportunity to meet with the minister, and I was given full encouragement to proceed as I thought best and to feel free to make recommendations as I saw fit.

I met and had a very productive and enjoyable meeting with my predecessor to review some of the issues he had dealt with, and I gained insights there.

There's the ongoing administrative work of the commission: a budgetary review, work on the plan for the coming year--

[Shelly Glover, Conservative, Saint Boniface, MB]

That's a lot since January. Good for you.

I'm curious to know, though, have you also thought about the input or the effect on provinces that contract out to the RCMP? I'm interested in knowing whether you have had conversations about that. I once lived in a small town that had to contract out even though they were becoming a city. I'm curious to know how you deal with the provinces.

[Ian McPhail]

That's a very interesting point. It gives rise to one of the general areas that I referenced, which is the ability to coordinate. For example, while we can share our decisions with the parties involved, we can't share them with the provincial ministers and with our provincial counterparts due to privacy legislation.

[Shelly Glover, Conservative, Saint Boniface, MB]

So a complaint is lodged against a member in a small town. The complaint comes to you. You complete the investigation and you're restricted from sharing that information with the ministers in the provinces?

[Ian McPhail]

Correct.

[The Vice-Chair, Liberal, Mark Holland]

I'm sorry, it will have to be a yes or no answer. Are you confirming that?

[Ian McPhail]

Yes, that's correct.

May I--

[The Vice-Chair, Liberal, Mark Holland]

Now we will continue with the Bloc Québécois for five minutes.

Mr. Pomerleau, you have the floor.

[Roger Pomerleau, Bloc, Drummond, QC]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

Mr. McPhail, Ms. Banulescu, Mr. Brosseau, I thank you for being here today.

This is the first time that I sit on this committee. If I correctly understand what I have heard, you have been in this position for a brief period of time, actually since last January.

[Ian McPhail]

That's correct. Likewise, it's the first time I've come to this committee.

[Roger Pomerleau, Bloc, Drummond, QC]

I wish you good luck in your work.

I would like to put a few basic questions. What kind of complaints does the Commission for Public Complaints Against the Royal Canadian Mounted Police deal with? Do you have a register of such complaints? Are there any very specific kinds of complaints? What part of Canada do they come from? Do they come from all over Canada? How many employees do you have to deal with these complaints?

[Ian McPhail]

There are several questions there. First of all, in terms of the numbers of people we have to deal with the complaints, there are 40 full-time staff at the commission and approximately 20 short-term staff members. In addition, the commission retains outside investigators for specific projects.

In terms of the types of complaints, as you might imagine, they range from an instance where a citizen believes a police officer has been rude or disrespectful to I would say fairly high-level complaints dealing with political and other sensitive matters, and everything in between.

I'm glad you raised that issue. One of the things I would like to see happen with the commission, and I've seen this in the few months I've been here, is when you look at some of the complaints relating to police behaviour, many of which can occur because of a misunderstanding, sometimes because of language difficulties, I'd like to see us have the ability to appoint mediators and engage in other forms of alternate dispute resolution. I believe that would--not in all, but certainly in a significant number of instances--provide a faster, more effective, and more positive resolution. Whenever you have to say someone is right, someone is wrong, that's not as effective as the parties involved coming to that conclusion themselves.

[Roger Pomerleau, Bloc, Drummond, QC]

It's just like in real life, isn't it?

You made five recommendations. Creating a position for a mediator would probably be the sixth recommendation. Under the title “Access to information”, we read, and I quote: “With the current model, the RCMP Commissioner can refuse to disclose information regarding a complaint.”

What reasons did the commissioner give to refuse to give information?

[Ian McPhail]

Since I've been in this position the commissioner has not refused, on any occasion, to provide information. In fact the RCMP has been most cooperative. My concern in terms of the credibility of the process is that the public needs to be assured that the commission is given the tools and the information necessary to do its job.

[The Vice-Chair, Liberal, Mark Holland]

Thank you very much.

Now we will continue with Mr. Rathgeber, who has five minutes.

[Brent Rathgeber, Conservative, Edmonton—St. Albert, AB]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

And thank you to all the witnesses for your attendance.

Congratulations, Mr. McPhail, on your appointment. I know you'll do well.

You've been on the job since approximately the beginning of January.

[Ian McPhail]

Yes, the middle of January.

[Brent Rathgeber, Conservative, Edmonton—St. Albert, AB]

One of the major policing events that has occurred during your short tenure has been the policing of the Vancouver 2010 Olympics. I was wondering if you could tell us how that went, from your perspective, whether there were complaints, and if so, what kinds of complaints they might have been.