Evidence of meeting #10 for Public Safety and National Security in the 41st Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was inmates.
A recording is available from Parliament.
Conservative
Wai Young Conservative Vancouver South, BC
And the new facility that you're anticipating in the spring, will that be a positive and a good thing for both inmates and staff?
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Kevin Sorenson
We'll now move to Mr. Scarpaleggia, please.
You have seven minutes.
November 1st, 2011 / 11:40 a.m.
Liberal
Francis Scarpaleggia Liberal Lac-Saint-Louis, QC
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
Thank you, Mr. Putnam and Mr. Van De Mortel, for coming here and telling your stories.
Mr. Putnam, I think your son would be proud of you for being here today, as would yours, Mr. Van De Mortel. You've done us a great service by coming here. Thank you also for what you've done and what you do to keep our society safe, as a former RCMP officer, Mr. Putnam, and as a corrections officer, Mr. Van De Mortel.
It's particularly important to have you here today, because often the witnesses who come to see us, even though they have some real-life experience in the area we're studying...sometimes we are witness to some very theoretical briefs. It is sometimes really hard to get a good detailed image of what's really going on, on the ground. That is why our visits last week to Collins Bay and Joyceville were so instructive.
Mr. Van De Mortel, the incident that occurred the night you were injured was the result of a brew. We've been told all along that these are not particularly appetizing drinks, that they're made out of things you could never imagine could be used to make a brew.
How do we prevent these brews from being made? Is it possible? Are inmates, just by virtue of the fact that they have access to food and what have you, always going to be able to make these brews?
In answering that question, could you refer to a point either you or Mr. Putnam made about how it will no longer be just a matter of having blinds in front of the windows on cell doors, that there will be, and I forget the term that was used, more direct supervision. Will that prevent brews from being made? What does direct supervision mean, actually?
As an Individual
Direct supervision means that there will be an officer in the unit at all times. Where you have a unit with inmates--I believe the new prison has four male units and one female unit--while the inmates are out and about, there will be an officer in that unit.
Liberal
Francis Scarpaleggia Liberal Lac-Saint-Louis, QC
That's someone who can verify what's going on in the cells?
As an Individual
Yes. They're checking and helping inmates with day-to-day stuff, helping with course work. For whatever help the inmates need, they come to that front-line officer. As well, when the officer is there, he has eyes on all the time. It's not just a camera now. There's an officer in there walking around, spending the whole day with the inmates.
Liberal
Francis Scarpaleggia Liberal Lac-Saint-Louis, QC
Is he going in and out of cells? And that doesn't exist at the moment?
As an Individual
Our building was built in the 1960s. We have converted at least five of our dorms into direct supervision, but right now we don't have the manpower half the time to actually staff those units.
Liberal
Francis Scarpaleggia Liberal Lac-Saint-Louis, QC
When we went to visit Collins Bay we saw the ionizers and the sniffer dog. There are of course now what they call “dry loos”. It seems almost impossible to bring drugs into the prison unless they're thrown over the fence or the wall, though doing so seems less and less likely, as Corrections Canada devotes more resources to patrolling the perimeter of an institution.
Yet from what we're hearing from both of you, it seems much more rampant than that. There's a whole society within the prison built around the exchange of drugs. There's intimidation, and the tentacles reach outside the prison walls. I'm having a hard time reconciling the two. It seems so hard to bring the drugs in, yet they seem to be there.
Do you have any comments to make?
As an Individual
If there's a will, there's a way. They find ways. A lot of them aren't dumb people. They've got time; they think about it and they come up with ways to do it. We're all human. I know there are officers who do bring it in for them, which is another thing.
Liberal
Francis Scarpaleggia Liberal Lac-Saint-Louis, QC
You mentioned that it's very important that the front-line staff, because of the good relationship they often have with the inmates, be brought into the effort to get inmates to follow the programs, that they be brought in as agents of support. I wasn't quite sure what you meant, but does that relate to what you just said before about having somebody on the ground all the time, going in and out of cells and just chatting and establishing relationships and being there to offer encouragement? Is that sort of what you're getting at?
Liberal
Francis Scarpaleggia Liberal Lac-Saint-Louis, QC
Mr. Putnam, you said, and I think we all know what you mean by this, that you had more peace of mind sometimes when your son was in the penitentiary than when he was out, because it was in some ways a safer environment. We know that this is ultimately not what you wanted for your son. Is it just because the programs outside of the system are not effective in helping people combat their addictions? We're at the point where we're almost throwing our hands up in frustration and saying it's better that they be in the institution, where things are structured and there are protections. Is it because of the failure of community-based programs?
As an Individual
No. I meant that when Christopher was incarcerated, we knew where he was. He'd phone us every night; we'd talk a little bit and he'd tell us about his day inside, which usually wasn't that exciting. When he was outside, Christopher was a real high-risk person. He would do anything. He was a horrible...I don't want to use the word “drunk”. He did not handle alcohol at all. He's one of these guys that you'd find in a snow bank. He would get into a car and roll the car.
When he was on a roll, so to speak, we were terrified. It sort of came and went. There'd be good months, a couple of good months, and then things would rapidly get out of control, and that's when he'd end up back in jail. One day, it was a Friday afternoon, his mother and I didn't know where he was. We hadn't seen him for a day or so. The stress level in the house was going right through the roof. The phone rang, and the number that came up was the correctional centre and it was him. It was one of these “Ah, thank goodness, he's safe” reactions.
I'm sure he didn't like being in jail, but he was always okay with it.
Liberal
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Kevin Sorenson
Thank you very much.
We'll now move back to Mr. Sandhu, please, for five minutes on the second round.
NDP
Jasbir Sandhu NDP Surrey North, BC
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
I also want to echo my colleague's earlier remarks and thank you for being here. We very much appreciate you sharing your personal and painful experiences with this committee. We really do appreciate that.
We've heard over the last number of weeks now that every prison has its own challenges. The female and male prisons have different challenges with regard to drugs in the prisons. There are different ways of achieving success in each one of those prisons, and we've heard from a number of different corrections workers as to how that success is achieved.
We've also heard over the last couple of weeks that in order for us to have sort of bold model prisons, we need to take a balanced approach. That includes effective programs, rehabilitation programs, treatment, and also some form of interdiction. So my question for both of you is, would it be fair to say that in order to have a better system we need to take a fair, balanced approach in dealing with drugs?
As an Individual
I'm not sure exactly sure what that term “balanced approach” means.
NDP
Jasbir Sandhu NDP Surrey North, BC
Let me go over that again. If we're going to have a drug-free prison, if we're going to have a better system in place, a balanced approach would be having better programs, better treatment, and better interdiction programs, or a balance of those three in order for us to have drug-free prisons.
As an Individual
Regardless of where you are, things could always get better. At least in my view, there certainly should be programs available. There certainly should be vigilance on the part of correctional staff and law enforcement to make sure they keep the drugs out of there.
Interdiction, certainly. I think we've probably talked about that here today, or maybe expressed it already. Where I'm coming from is not working inside of a prison. I look at it from the outside more than anything. It's again the training, the programming, help, hope, and healing.
I don't think I'm answering your question.
NDP
As an Individual
Yes, everything helps. The main thing is just to try to keep the drugs and the alcohol out of prisons, period. That's going to be the biggest step and the biggest help with starting all these other programs and making them successful. Take that temptation away from them and they can make a clear and conscious decision without the threat of getting hurt, or something along those lines, and you can move forward from there. The programs and that kind of stuff will have a better effect on the inmates.
NDP
Jasbir Sandhu NDP Surrey North, BC
Thank you.
We've seen the prison population increase over the last number of years, especially since the two-for-one was eliminated. We also know it's going to increase further with the introduction of Bill C-10, which is before Parliament.
Mr. Van De Mortel, do you believe this will have a negative effect on your ability or your workers' ability to remove contraband in the prison system?
As an Individual
By having more people? No, it shouldn't, if we do our jobs. We're looking good in Whitehorse because we're getting that new facility, so we're hoping it will be easier for us and more successful for us to keep the contraband out of the jail. In Whitehorse, anyway, we are set up to move forward and it shouldn't be a problem for us.