Public Safety Committee on June 21st, 2011

[Patricia Hassard]

Mr. Chairman, I would refer again to the selection criteria themselves. The selection committee has actually added seven major criteria to the selection criteria. Each and every one of them speaks to the kind of leadership that the committee felt the RCMP will need going into the future. This is a very forward-looking set of selection criteria focused very much on leadership in a “complex accountability environment”, on leadership of people, on developing a corporate vision, and on aligning staff behind that.

[Graham Flack]

Maybe I could give an example on the complex accountability side.

Many in Ottawa see the federal face of the Royal Canadian Mounted Police. But it is not just a national police service; it is also a police service that is present on hundreds of aboriginal reserves in Canada, where it's the primary police service provider.

There are close to 200 municipalities in Canada that use the RCMP as their police service. It is the police service for eight of the 10 provinces and three territories at the provincial and territorial levels. And it is active internationally, working with international organizations, for example, most recently in Haiti.

So the accountabilities are, indeed, as you suggest, highly complex, because in those different environments it's operating in different contexts and even with different legal accountabilities in terms of its regimes.

So it is a highly decentralized, sophisticated, and complex organization that requires an individual to be able to balance those accountabilities and meet stakeholder needs in that very broad range of environments.

[Candice Bergen, Conservative, Portage—Lisgar, MB]

According to the criteria, you would be looking for someone who has demonstrated that type of experience. Obviously, they have to have demonstrated that at some point in their careers.

[Patricia Hassard]

That's right.

[Candice Bergen, Conservative, Portage—Lisgar, MB]

I also want to ask you for a moment about implementing a corporate vision. I know Mr. Sandhu talked about the whole idea of reaching out to the community. And we're always very concerned with victims' right. Your criteria don't talk about having someone who has a strong knowledge of the corporate vision and mandate of the RCMP--which include all of those things--and then implementing it and making sure that vision is carried out throughout the entire organization.

[Patricia Hassard]

I would point again to the one about “Understanding of Canada’s social and cultural fabric and a sensitivity to the issues relevant to the diversity of the Canadian population”. In the criteria from 2007 there were brackets, with a number of additions: racial, cultural, linguistic, sexual orientation, etc. The selection committee did not feel it was necessary to elaborate in that kind of detail since it could have gone on at some length. But that criterion is meant to cover the type of competency you were discussing.

[Candice Bergen, Conservative, Portage—Lisgar, MB]

Thank you very much.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kevin Sorenson]

Thank you, Ms. Hoeppner.

We'll now move to Mr. Scarpaleggia.

[Francis Scarpaleggia, Liberal, Lac-Saint-Louis, QC]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

Welcome to the committee. I think dealing with this issue is a great way to start our work as a committee.

I'm wondering what went wrong the last time. Obviously mistakes were made. The new selection criteria are interesting but seem to really be just vague terms that you would normally subsume under the rubric of “leadership”.

First of all, what went wrong the last time? And second, how do the new criteria help us to avoid repeating the same mistakes?

[Patricia Hassard]

Mr. Chairman, I'm a bit at a loss on this one. I understood that we were going to talk about the selection criteria for the new commissioner. I don't feel that my colleague and I are in a position to comment.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kevin Sorenson]

I think because we have been given both criteria, maybe the best way is to explain in a little more detail why there is a difference in the criteria between 2007 and 2011.

[Patricia Hassard]

Okay, Mr. Chairman.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kevin Sorenson]

For one thing, I'll let you answer it. I won't take this time away from you. You've mentioned succession planning. I know in the last Parliament that was one of the issues that came out of our committee. That definitely is one, bringing up leadership and that type of thing. If you could point out again some of the differences between the two criteria and perhaps some of the reasons they've been added.

[Patricia Hassard]

Certainly, Mr. Chairman.

I think we would go back to the concept of the context and the operating environment in which the RCMP finds itself in 2011 versus 2007. In particular, I would cite its report on planning and priorities, which states “the RCMP is facing a period of intense resource pressure as the effects of the economic downturn have caused the Government of Canada to closely review spending and resource allocations.”

Like all other federal organizations, the RCMP is subject to constraints. To meet that challenge, one of our requirements for the next commissioner is significant management experience at the senior executive level, including in circumstances where there are constraints on financial and human resources.

[Francis Scarpaleggia, Liberal, Lac-Saint-Louis, QC]

I'd like to pursue that, actually.

It seems to me that one of the problems with the last commissioner was that he wasn't seen to be an advocate for the force. What you're setting out in your new criteria is that you want someone who will be there to implement the government's agenda on budget cuts. How would someone who fits that mould be able to be an advocate for the force? As you know, the Auditor General just came out with a report saying there are significant resource problems that are forcing the force to abandon some of its core duties. What the government is saying in the criteria is that what is needed is somebody who will impose greater limits on resources.

Is this the first time there's been a selection committee for choosing the commissioner, or was there one the last time? You may have mentioned it, but I didn't catch that.

[Patricia Hassard]

There was a selection committee the last time as well.

[Francis Scarpaleggia, Liberal, Lac-Saint-Louis, QC]

You didn't give any names of the members of the selection committee. I'd be interested to know, for example, who the two former solicitors general are.

[Patricia Hassard]

Mr. Chairman, one of them is James Kelleher and the other is Jean-Jacques Blais.

[Francis Scarpaleggia, Liberal, Lac-Saint-Louis, QC]

Could you remind me what their former political affiliations are?

[Patricia Hassard]

I think they represent two opposite perspectives.

[Francis Scarpaleggia, Liberal, Lac-Saint-Louis, QC]

Mr. Blais, of course, represents the Liberal tradition.

You mentioned that the new commissioner will have to operate in a complex accountability environment. How has that environment changed from four and a half years ago? We have the same government with its accountability message and package in place. How has the accountability environment become more complex? The RCMP was already operating in Haiti, or at least some national police forces would send officers down to Haiti. I don't quite understand how that has changed.

An additional question would be, do these criteria leave room for someone who does not have previous experience in a police force? If you read the criteria, it seems pretty difficult to imagine, given these criteria, that you could have someone from outside the policing area. Is your intent to restrict it to someone from a police force?

Third, and then I'll let the witnesses answer, Mr. Chair, if one of the candidates had expressed opinions on policy issues publicly, for example, if a candidate said that he or she believes in the gun registry, would your selection committee put that person aside or would that candidate have a likelihood of still going forward?

[Patricia Hassard]

Mr. Chairman, I think I will start with the second question and then ask my colleague to deal with the first and perhaps the third.

I think the question was, is policing experience one of the requirements? I think you will find that we have actually not specified direct policing or law enforcement experience as a stated criterion, although of course it's highly desirable for this position. We're looking for a strong leader, with a good understanding of the RCMP mandate and their operating context, and an individual who will provide strategic direction and position the force for the future.

Again, referring to the selection criteria, under “Knowledge”, it is stated that we are expecting knowledge of the RCMP mandate, challenges, accountabilities, and operating context. In the same section, we are looking for “an understanding of criminal law, the Charter of Rights and Freedoms, and the legal and institutional context of police work”.

So it is clear that the government is looking for the best candidate to lead the RCMP, whether they come from inside or outside the force.

[Graham Flack]

I could speak to the resource limits question and the accountability questions. Maybe the most useful lens to put on this would be that we're currently conducting what will be the largest contract in Canadian history, which is the contract policing negotiations with the provinces and municipalities. That ends at the end of the fiscal year in 2012.

That environment has highlighted to us very clearly how the fiscal context is a context that's facing not simply the federal government, but all policing jurisdictions in Canada. All are under significant pressure to allocate resources very effectively, given the dynamic environment in which they're operating. They need to prioritize among the resources.

I think you won't find a police organization in the country that believes they're over-resourced in terms of the needs that are out there, but all governments at all levels are putting a very close eye on cost containment in order to get the highest possible value from the resources the taxpayers are providing for policing. At all levels that has been a dominant theme in the contract policing negotiation and it is one of the reasons why there's such high attention on the ability to operate in a constrained fiscal environment.

Even if police resources were to increase, they certainly aren't going to increase to the degree to which that dynamic operating environment might find.... We find that's true with international partners as well: they're having to make clear choices around where to allocate resources in this dynamic environment. That's a core reason for that criteria.

Partly in the contract policing negotiations--

[The Chair, Conservative, Kevin Sorenson]

Very quickly, please.

[Graham Flack]

Yes. The accountability environment is changing as well. One of the key interests of the provinces in this new contract policing environment is a number of the resources that were expended.

For example, on the accommodations function of the RCMP, they want greater oversight over the spending, which will entail greater accountability from the RCMP and the RCMP commissioner over how that spending is going. That's just one example of a changing accountability environment that's becoming more complex.