Evidence of meeting #24 for Public Safety and National Security in the 41st Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was gps.
A recording is available from Parliament.
3:50 p.m.
Portfolio Manager, Surveillance, Intelligence and Interdiction, Defence Research and Defence Canada - Centre for Security Science, Department of National Defence
Things to do with the overall performance of the system, in the way you put it, are outside my purview.
3:50 p.m.
Conservative
Jay Aspin Conservative Nipissing—Timiskaming, ON
Do you believe that electronic monitoring deters offenders from committing offences or breaching their conditions?
3:50 p.m.
Portfolio Manager, Surveillance, Intelligence and Interdiction, Defence Research and Defence Canada - Centre for Security Science, Department of National Defence
Again, that's a question that is better posed to Public Safety Canada, the policy and criminology folks over there.
3:50 p.m.
Conservative
Jay Aspin Conservative Nipissing—Timiskaming, ON
I'll try another one.
What complaints are associated with the wearing of bracelets equipped with GPS or radio frequency transmitters?
3:50 p.m.
Portfolio Manager, Surveillance, Intelligence and Interdiction, Defence Research and Defence Canada - Centre for Security Science, Department of National Defence
Complaints?
3:50 p.m.
Portfolio Manager, Surveillance, Intelligence and Interdiction, Defence Research and Defence Canada - Centre for Security Science, Department of National Defence
I would hazard to say, from what I have read in some of the literature, that there is a tendency for frequent alarms and a need to respond to alarms that are caused by a multitude of factors. I think that's one of the complaints that you read about. In fact, it's documented in the report that Correctional Services Canada made when they evaluated their pilot study.
3:50 p.m.
Conservative
Jay Aspin Conservative Nipissing—Timiskaming, ON
Would it be useful to increase the use of electronic monitoring in the immigration enforcement field?
3:50 p.m.
Portfolio Manager, Surveillance, Intelligence and Interdiction, Defence Research and Defence Canada - Centre for Security Science, Department of National Defence
I can't answer that question either.
3:50 p.m.
Conservative
3:50 p.m.
Director General, Defence Research and Development Canada - Centre for Security Science, Department of National Defence
No, I'm sorry I can't.
Again, we're here as technical experts and advisors to Public Safety Canada and Correctional Services Canada. Those types of questions, I think, are more appropriately directed towards those departments.
3:50 p.m.
Conservative
Jay Aspin Conservative Nipissing—Timiskaming, ON
How about the first question I had? Do you feel that this technology, implemented correctly, will keep Canadians safer?
3:50 p.m.
Director General, Defence Research and Development Canada - Centre for Security Science, Department of National Defence
I can't answer that. I'm sorry.
3:50 p.m.
Conservative
3:50 p.m.
Conservative
Candice Bergen Conservative Portage—Lisgar, MB
Thank you. I had a few questions, so I appreciate Mr. Aspin sharing his time with me.
You talked about the three different types of technology. I realize that you haven't actually studied them based on the necessity for any kind of monitoring. Obviously, it sounds like you know these three systems quite well, and you said you didn't want to bore us. It's not really boring for us, and we really need it spelled out really simply, and we probably need it spelled out two or three times.
It's not something that many of us have studied a lot. I wonder if you could just explain GPS radio frequency and biometrics in some other platforms in which you have used them, or other technologies or other purposes that you may have not used but have studied. I found your GPS explanation very helpful, and I actually would like you to have gone into more detail. If you can just do that in a little more detail....
Talk slowly for all of us—not you.
3:50 p.m.
Director General, Defence Research and Development Canada - Centre for Security Science, Department of National Defence
I talked a little bit about the Centre for Security Science and what our role is: to reach out to the policy and operational community, find requirements, and then reach back into the hard-core science and technology community to talk to the experts. While I may sound like an expert in GPS...I'm an electrical engineer but not really an expert in GPS.
However, we have a group of scientists and engineers at our laboratory at Shirley's Bay who are in a program we call navigation warfare. It's a program that is developed to support the Canadian Forces and their use of navigation technologies. These guys are world-renowned experts. They have written standards for NATO panels; they work very clearly with the high-end navigation problem. They're very interested in dismounted navigation or navigation in urban canyons, because a lot of activities by the Canadian Forces involve sending soldiers into confined areas more and more in cities, as opposed to into the open countryside.
We actually have access to world-class scientists and engineers who understand the intricate details of these things to the nth degree, literally, far more than I could explain.
That technology base is there to be drawn upon. We simply need to find a way, as I said, to transfer the operational requirements into technical requirements and then go and ask these guys for their opinion as to what these various technologies are capable of doing.
When we talk about biometrics, we have a biometrics program within the department that looks at biometrics in support of the Canadian Forces. I can't really talk about that in great detail. Pierre has been doing some work in biometrics with the broader public safety security community.
Maybe you can say a few words about that, Pierre.
3:55 p.m.
Portfolio Manager, Surveillance, Intelligence and Interdiction, Defence Research and Defence Canada - Centre for Security Science, Department of National Defence
Yes, I can comment a little bit on reaching, at certain hours...random phone calls to a household. One of the problems is that one can't always identify the person answering the phone, and in a family setting you really don't know who you're talking to if there are many people in the household. The problem seems to be the identification of the person, making sure it's that person at that time who is respecting the curfew when they're being called upon.
One way is to use voice recognition. There are other ways where we could institute some kind of biometric measurement device associated with the telephone system to make sure the person holding the set at the other end is undoubtedly the person you want to talk to. There are some ways of ensuring that the person is where they say they are.
3:55 p.m.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Kevin Sorenson
Thank you very much.
We'll now move to Mr. Scarpaleggia, please.
3:55 p.m.
Liberal
Francis Scarpaleggia Liberal Lac-Saint-Louis, QC
Thank you, Chair.
Who makes devices like this? Is it subsidiaries of large corporations? Are there little start-up companies that specialize in this area?
You were saying you've been flipping through catalogues, but there can't be that many companies out there that make this kind of equipment, can there?
3:55 p.m.
Director General, Defence Research and Development Canada - Centre for Security Science, Department of National Defence
I'm going to ask Pierre to answer that because he's been looking at those more than I have.
3:55 p.m.
Portfolio Manager, Surveillance, Intelligence and Interdiction, Defence Research and Defence Canada - Centre for Security Science, Department of National Defence
I know some of the companies are quite large; they have absorbed smaller companies and are now offering the service. How big are the companies? An example is 3M.
There are only about half a dozen companies or so that—
3:55 p.m.
Portfolio Manager, Surveillance, Intelligence and Interdiction, Defence Research and Defence Canada - Centre for Security Science, Department of National Defence
Worldwide, yes; maybe between half a dozen to a dozen. It's a fairly small field.
3:55 p.m.
Liberal
Francis Scarpaleggia Liberal Lac-Saint-Louis, QC
If 3M or any other conglomerate is buying up a little niche company like this, they must believe it's a growing market. I guess they think there's potential and they might have government relations folks at their disposal, but maybe that's a question for another witness.
How many different kinds of products, then, could there be? You would think it's almost one-size-fits-all. There can't be too many variations on the theme. I would think it's either ankle bracelets or a bracelet.
I understand you could have a GPS system, you could have a biometric system, you could have a radio frequency system, but within each category there can't be too many options, can there? We're not at that level of market segmentation, I would think.