Evidence of meeting #25 for Public Safety and National Security in the 41st Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was monitoring.
A recording is available from Parliament.
5:05 p.m.
NDP
Sylvain Chicoine NDP Châteauguay—Saint-Constant, QC
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
Thank you to the witnesses for being here and talking to us about their experience.
You mentioned earlier that, in some cases, it has been established that release options were inadequate and that the Canada Border Services Agency used electronic monitoring. The CBSA has been around since 2008. How long has it been using electronic monitoring?
5:05 p.m.
Director, Case Management Division, Operations Branch, Canada Border Services Agency
We've been using it since 2006 when it was ordered by the Federal Court for our security certificate cases. We've had anywhere between three to five people on a bracelet in any given year.
5:05 p.m.
NDP
Sylvain Chicoine NDP Châteauguay—Saint-Constant, QC
You say that it has been used for three to five people a year since 2006. How many people in all have worn electronic monitoring bracelets following an intervention on the part of your agency?
5:05 p.m.
Director, Case Management Division, Operations Branch, Canada Border Services Agency
Right now, there are four cases:
three who are security certificate cases, and one who has a background in organized crime.
5:05 p.m.
NDP
Sylvain Chicoine NDP Châteauguay—Saint-Constant, QC
So there have not been a lot of cases in the past five years.
5:10 p.m.
Director, Case Management Division, Operations Branch, Canada Border Services Agency
No.
5:10 p.m.
NDP
Sylvain Chicoine NDP Châteauguay—Saint-Constant, QC
Sir, in your introductory remarks, you mentioned being able to confirm that electronic monitoring was effective. So you are referring only to electronic monitoring in security certificate cases.
5:10 p.m.
Director General, Post-Border Programs, Canada Border Services Agency
That is right. I was referring to those cases.
5:10 p.m.
NDP
Sylvain Chicoine NDP Châteauguay—Saint-Constant, QC
Ms. Kramer, you spoke of people associated with organized crime. Could electronic monitoring be useful for other people?
5:10 p.m.
Director, Case Management Division, Operations Branch, Canada Border Services Agency
Electronic monitoring is very good to follow movement, but it doesn't prevent someone from disappearing or going underground, so for the purposes of immigration, where it's important that we know where the people are, that would not always be the best option. In some cases, other conditions of release are just as effective, such as curfews, or reporting conditions, or even bonds—monetary bonds or performance bonds are just as effective.
In most other cases, it would be excessive and not necessarily cost-effective, because it's not just the bracelet. You need people to monitor the screen and to respond to the alerts and the alarms 24 hours a day, seven days a week.
You have to take those things into consideration. Quite often, a low-risk population wouldn't warrant that type of response.
5:10 p.m.
NDP
Sylvain Chicoine NDP Châteauguay—Saint-Constant, QC
I imagine there would be other cases in which it might be effective. We are talking about four or five people a year, mainly security certificate cases, if I am not mistaken. Still there are a lot more people who are detained. I think there are four detention centres in Canada. Among detainees as a whole, do you think there might be more cases in which electronic monitoring would be effective? Would it be too expensive?
5:10 p.m.
Director, Case Management Division, Operations Branch, Canada Border Services Agency
We never rule out that option. It depends on the case-by-case situation. In some cases, it's quite a good option, particularly for security certificate cases, in which we know they're going to be here for a while because they're going through litigation and court proceedings. In other cases, where removal may be imminent, a better solution, depending on the case, might be detention rather than putting them on a bracelet.
5:10 p.m.
NDP
Sylvain Chicoine NDP Châteauguay—Saint-Constant, QC
Thank you.
You said earlier that electronic monitoring had been used in other measures designed to reduce risk. What measures are those?
5:10 p.m.
Director, Case Management Division, Operations Branch, Canada Border Services Agency
I would say that sometimes we ask that they apply to have their outings approved before they can go out. Sometimes we ask for visitors to be approved before they meet with certain people. We may put restrictions on them—for example, you can't go to a certain mosque—or put restrictions on Internet access. It really depends on the situation. Quite often, these are conditions of release that are prescribed by the court.
5:10 p.m.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Kevin Sorenson
Thank you very much, Mr. Chicoine.
We'll now move back to Mr. Norlock, please.
5:10 p.m.
Conservative
Rick Norlock Conservative Northumberland—Quinte West, ON
Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.
Through you, Mr. Chair, I thank the witnesses for attending.
Concerning your last statement when you were saying they can't use the Internet, I don't know how you would ever enforce that, but do you have a way of enforcing it?
5:10 p.m.
Director, Case Management Division, Operations Branch, Canada Border Services Agency
Well, you can ask that someone have a computer without Internet access, or quite often we have supervisors, and you could say that the person can only use the computer in the presence of an approved supervisor. It is difficult, of course, but we have a way of going in to look at the computer to see what has been accessed.
5:10 p.m.
Conservative
Rick Norlock Conservative Northumberland—Quinte West, ON
Good. Thank you.
I'd like to ask a couple of questions. I'll start off by asking in roughly how many cases per year—“cases” meaning people—you would use EM.
5:10 p.m.
Director, Case Management Division, Operations Branch, Canada Border Services Agency
We currently have it on four people, but I don't think we're limited by the number; it's more by the types of cases in which it would make sense to use it.
5:10 p.m.
Conservative
Rick Norlock Conservative Northumberland—Quinte West, ON
Have you done a study with regard to how you could possibly reduce your costs of monitoring, etc., for compliance? I guess that's the appropriate overarching word. As to the costs, if it's only four people, then why bother sort of thing...? Have you looked at this as a way—in a global perspective, for all the things you have to do—as to how best, from a cost perspective, to monitor?
5:15 p.m.
Director General, Post-Border Programs, Canada Border Services Agency
No, we haven't. We are considering whether or not we might be wise to undertake such a study in the near future, but we have not undertaken a global study to date.
5:15 p.m.
Conservative
Rick Norlock Conservative Northumberland—Quinte West, ON
The reason I ask this is that if it's going to be a lower number.... I can see the application towards some of your conditions, although you're the expert and I am not, so we'd have to acquiesce to your best judgment.... But if I may be so bold as to suggest this, should you be looking at this from a cost-effective perspective? Might I also be so bold as to suggest that you perhaps would want to work in conjunction with Corrections and pool your resources?
In other words, you could have a joint contract to reduce costs, etc., because the government is just one big operation, and if we operate in silos, sometimes it's more expensive; however, when we have similarities.... That's just a suggestion.
Another suggestion would be this. On the defence committee, we just recently—as a matter of fact, on Monday—took a tour of the defence research facility in Downsview. They have some world-class scientists there who know what they're doing and are able, as Mr. Head previously witnessed, to do things.
These are just suggestions. Please, I'm not telling you how to do your jobs: these are just suggestions from looking at things. To the average Canadian, 44,000 people, and we don't know where they are....
In your experience—because I'm sure both of you have been with CBSA for some time—would some of these people be collecting provincial benefits or those types of things? Also, do you have formalized contacts with provincial agencies, or even with municipal agencies, because in the province of Ontario, municipalities handle social services, that would enable you to ferret out who might be one or more or many of these 44,000 people? I guess the basic question is this: how vigorously do you try to track these people?
5:15 p.m.
Director General, Post-Border Programs, Canada Border Services Agency
Thank you for that. Let me make a few comments about the warrant inventory.
The first comment I'd like to make and to be clear on is that we consider the warrant inventory to be a cornerstone mechanism for the effective management of our inland enforcement program, and in particular, removal, and we've been working to ensure that the policy framework around that inventory is modern and up to date.
For example, we have issued a policy framework setting out the requirements before an officer may issue a warrant. We've also established a fairly robust risk management framework to ensure that warrants are cancelled on an appropriate basis when there's no risk to the safety and security of Canadians. We continue to evaluate that policy framework.
In addition, we have been very fortunate, through the refugee reform initiative, to secure funding for our systems, and in particular, for our national case management system, which, several years ago, the Auditor General noted needed enhancements, also noting that we didn't have the resources at that time. So we're now beginning to see some of the benefits of the investment to enhance our system to manage the inventory.
Last and importantly—and of course this is by no means an exhaustive list of things that we're doing—the Beyond the Border action plan envisages an entry-exit system for Canada to work with the U.S., and then in the future with other countries, so that for the first time we'll be able to know who and which foreign nationals have left the country. We believe that this will be very helpful in terms of allowing us to ensure that our warrant inventory is the most up-to-date inventory possible. The number itself, I would say, sounds large and significant—and it is—but it is also, as I mentioned, a very effective enforcement tool that law enforcement across the country uses, because those warrants are in the CPIC inventory.
I appreciate your earlier comments. We and CSC are partners within the public safety portfolio. We have initiated discussions with CSC. They have more experience in the use of electronic monitoring than we do, having run the pilots, and they're open to sharing that information with us.
Lastly, I am very familiar with DRDC, having worked with that community before I joined the Border Services Agency, and it was interesting to hear Mr. Head talk about the possibility that the DRDC would help them in establishing their requirements for requests for proposals. It's an interesting idea that could be beneficial to CBSA.
5:20 p.m.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Kevin Sorenson
Thank you.
Thank you very much, both of you.
Now we'll go back to Mr. Garrison, please.