Public Safety Committee on April 26th, 2012

[Guy Lauzon, Conservative, Stormont—Dundas—South Glengarry, ON]

Exactly.

[Brent Rathgeber, Conservative, Edmonton—St. Albert, AB]

—pursuant to an award from a court or a tribunal or agency. Then, either I misunderstood that, or there was a problem in translation. So I guess I don't have any questions. I just wanted to help Mr. Scarpaleggia.

[Guy Lauzon, Conservative, Stormont—Dundas—South Glengarry, ON]

Don't blame the translator, blame my French.

[Brent Rathgeber, Conservative, Edmonton—St. Albert, AB]

In follow-up to that—and this probably again would have a head-on collision with provincial jurisdiction over normal laws of debtor-creditor—I know the situation of individuals who have written books in prison about their crimes, and of course, those proceeds were garnishable by the Crown pursuant to the principle of law that no criminal can profit from his crime, but if an individual were to write a book about their experience in prison that's not actually about their crime.... Individuals have profited from that. I'm just curious as to whether you thought about attaching proceeds from legitimate work while an individual is in prison.

[Guy Lauzon, Conservative, Stormont—Dundas—South Glengarry, ON]

I did not, because like I said, this came as a result of somebody bringing it to my attention. Quite frankly, I was incredulous when I realized that this could actually happen in our society, and when I pursued it a little bit and found out.... So it's limited, I didn't expand it to things. Like I said, maybe this committee has some suggestions as to how we can improve the bill. I'm more than willing to work with amendments.

[Brent Rathgeber, Conservative, Edmonton—St. Albert, AB]

I'm looking forward to Mr. Garrison's constitutional witness, because I suspect that the scenario I just cited would fall exclusively under provincial jurisdiction over property and civil rights, but I don't know for sure.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kevin Sorenson]

Are you done, Mr. Rathgeber?

You have about a minute and a half, Mr. Leef.

[Brent Rathgeber, Conservative, Edmonton—St. Albert, AB]

I'm good, unless Mr. Scarpaleggia has any more questions for me.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kevin Sorenson]

Mr. Leef, do you want to finish out his questioning?

[Ryan Leef, Conservative, Yukon, YT]

Sure, I can finish it out for you.

It sounds like there's a bit of appetite and interest in at least exploring some additional ways of trying to recoup this “deadbeat dad” thing, or even to pay back the victims for offences.

You see here the sensational cases like the Bacon boy there in B.C. who got paid out a million dollars last year, and undoubtedly he has debts to all kinds of victims and people.

Being a deputy superintendent in corrections, I watched inmates build bank accounts, quite healthy bank accounts in fact, from illegitimate purposes within the correctional centre. It ties into another study we just recently were working on with the illicit drug trade inside of correctional centres. When you see an inmate come in with nothing and then accumulate $500, $600, $700 in an account, and then not pay child support, not do these things, and you know that money has been gained through illegitimate purposes within the correctional centre, it seems a shame to me that we don't have an opportunity to be able to reach in and move that money away to legitimate victims.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kevin Sorenson]

Thank you, Mr. Leef.

We'll now move back to Mr. Rousseau.

Mr. Rousseau, you have five minutes.

[Jean Rousseau, NDP, Compton—Stanstead, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I more or less agree with Mr. Leef and Mr. Rathgeber. Perhaps we could broaden the scope of the bill since you did say you were open to amendments. Yes, some prisoners do receive income while they are incarcerated. In most cases, those prisoners have families to support or, as we heard earlier, they have grandparents or close relatives. I would like to see prisoners be accountable to those people. Some literally earn income while in jail.

What do you say to that?

[Guy Lauzon, Conservative, Stormont—Dundas—South Glengarry, ON]

As Mr. Rathgeber said, I think it is tough because we have two jurisdictions. Initially, I wanted to introduce something more comprehensive. But, we have to be very mindful because we have the authority to take action in areas of federal jurisdiction, but not in provincial matters. In that respect, I think it would be very tough to do what you are proposing.

[Jean Rousseau, NDP, Compton—Stanstead, QC]

Earlier, someone asked how many prisoners this bill would affect.

[Guy Lauzon, Conservative, Stormont—Dundas—South Glengarry, ON]

I don't have those numbers. It doesn't happen a lot, but it does happen. There is encouragement for prisoners to submit complaints, and it is becoming a problem for the administration; if three prisoners in a single institution each file one complaint a day, it comes out to 1,000 grievances a year.

This bill will also keep prisoners from submitting complaints that are not founded.

[Jean Rousseau, NDP, Compton—Stanstead, QC]

Very well.

Could we broaden the order of priority of payments? Some victims sustain psychological injuries and need psychiatric treatment or psychotherapy. Some victims also sustain physical injuries and need psychotherapy. They have to pay for that treatment as well. Could we broaden the payment aspect to include that?

[Guy Lauzon, Conservative, Stormont—Dundas—South Glengarry, ON]

There would have to be proof that the injuries were caused by the crime committed by the prisoner. In that respect, it gets quite complicated because the injuries have to have been caused by the prisoner during the crime.

[Jean Rousseau, NDP, Compton—Stanstead, QC]

I see.

Do I have any time left?

[The Chair, Conservative, Kevin Sorenson]

Two minutes.

[Jean Rousseau, NDP, Compton—Stanstead, QC]

Okay.

You touched on the issue of institutional management. How do you see this bill as having a positive effect on safety management, especially in the institutions housing those who sometimes submit complaints?

[Guy Lauzon, Conservative, Stormont—Dundas—South Glengarry, ON]

I have two things to say about that.

First of all, I think it will reduce the number of prisoner complaints because most of them are not serious. Prisoners submit complaints just so they can win or cause problems for the administration.

Second of all, I believe wholeheartedly that this will make prisoners accept their responsibility and be accountable. Right now, there is no incentive. This measure will make them understand. It is the same thing for you and me: we have to accept responsibility. Our actions have consequences, and prisoners will have to deal with the same reality we do.

[Jean Rousseau, NDP, Compton—Stanstead, QC]

I am more inclined to think that turning them into responsible individuals does not happen easily and requires programs to make that happen.

[Guy Lauzon, Conservative, Stormont—Dundas—South Glengarry, ON]

Indeed, this does not solve every problem, but I think it provides a small part of the solution.

[Jean Rousseau, NDP, Compton—Stanstead, QC]

I see.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kevin Sorenson]

Thank you very much, Mr. Rousseau.

Now we'll move back to Mr. Leef and Mr. Aspin.