Evidence of meeting #4 for Public Safety and National Security in the 41st Parliament, 1st session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was inmates.
A recording is available from Parliament.
Liberal
Francis Scarpaleggia Liberal Lac-Saint-Louis, QC
I don't understand. If there's a problem, positions can be cut?
National President, Union of Canadian Correctional Officers, Confédération des syndicats nationaux (CSN)
No. Let's say that we assign one more person to monitor the perimeter. Great; the money has been allocated. But at some point, someone interprets it and says that it's possible to use the person in that position for other things. That's what needs to be checked.
But I'm not going to tell you that when we talk to management in Ottawa about this, they say to me that these people have the right to act this way. Actually, they tell me I'm right. There are 54 institutions…
National President, Union of Canadian Correctional Officers, Confédération des syndicats nationaux (CSN)
Yes, we attend eight meetings a year, and some discussions are very heated. Still, there are 54 institutions, and 54 wardens who can interpret things incorrectly.
Liberal
Francis Scarpaleggia Liberal Lac-Saint-Louis, QC
You were speaking earlier about certain populations, particularly individuals who want to be engaged and others who don't. There are also individuals who accumulate debts and who must then be protected. Do they become a third population?
National President, Union of Canadian Correctional Officers, Confédération des syndicats nationaux (CSN)
As terrible as this seems, some institutions have nine populations. There are inmates who are under protection because they have not paid their debt; those who are under protection because they committed sexual offences; and biker gangs who can't stand each other.
I had a terrible time at Donnacona Institution in 1995. Members of the Rock Machine and the Hells Angels were in the same penitentiary at the same time. One night, a war broke out outside, then inside. They had to be separated. We were lucky. A correctional officer saved a lot of lives that night. He closed the door. One inmate was getting stabbed. A lot of things happened.
In an institution, just sending an inmate to the hospital means that all sectors are frozen. For example, if an inmate from block E is going, nobody moves because he cannot come in contact with the others.
There are nine different populations, for all sorts of reasons.
Liberal
Francis Scarpaleggia Liberal Lac-Saint-Louis, QC
You've worked in this environment for long enough to be able to pass judgment on this question. I would like to know if you have had an individual arrive at a penitentiary and you say to yourself that he shouldn't be there. I'm thinking of someone who isn't a tough person and who you wouldn't give a week before he's attacked by a gang. I'm not talking about a situation that happens every day; I'm thinking more of a person who would not be able to bear the conditions and who shouldn't be there.
I know you see some tough cases who need to be where they are, but I would like to know if, in your career, you have seen that certain people—it could be people with minimum sentences—shouldn't be there.
National President, Union of Canadian Correctional Officers, Confédération des syndicats nationaux (CSN)
Are you talking about inmates or correctional officers?
National President, Union of Canadian Correctional Officers, Confédération des syndicats nationaux (CSN)
Oh, inmates who shouldn't be in the prison system?
Liberal
Francis Scarpaleggia Liberal Lac-Saint-Louis, QC
Inmates who, when you see them, you think that they won't last long.
National President, Union of Canadian Correctional Officers, Confédération des syndicats nationaux (CSN)
Yes, this has happened often to me. Honestly, even though we're correctional officers, sometimes we say to ourselves, when we see certain inmates: "Oh, poor guy, it makes no sense!" How can it be that there is no program for managing first sentences? It's something I've always asked myself. Nothing like this is offered to inmates who are serving their first sentence.
When we look at the background of some individuals who've committed an offence—I'm not talking about 25 murders, but a succession of offences—we say that they're going to get beaten down. They are going to be abused, picked up and asked for things, but they are going to have to keep it for themselves. At some point, they will have drugs or alcohol in their cell and will be ratted out. They are going to revolt against us and receive a disciplinary report. Then they'll be cornered. In those cases, an inmate doesn't tell us that, really, it's another inmate in the range who is responsible, otherwise it's him and not the other one who is going to get out. Population management revolves around this type of problem.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Kevin Sorenson
Thank you very much, Monsieur Scarpaleggia.
We'll move back to the official opposition.
Ms. Morin, you have five minutes.
Marie-Claude Morin NDP Saint-Hyacinthe—Bagot, QC
Right now, we're talking a lot about Bill C-10. If it's passed, the prison population would increase considerably, but the funding might not necessarily be in place. We could talk about inadequate staff to implement and adopt the assistance programs. I'm talking about correctional officers, but also services for the inmates, including psychological, medical and detox services. Could you please talk about the possible consequences of that, for the inmates first of all, then for the employees, and lastly for the public?
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Kevin Sorenson
Thank you, Madame Morin.
Again, we will have legislation coming before committee. Bill C-10 will go before the justice committee, where some of those issues will be discussed. My job is to keep us focused on the parameters of the motion.
Thank you, Madame Morin. You're always very good at accommodating.
NDP
Marie-Claude Morin NDP Saint-Hyacinthe—Bagot, QC
I'll rephrase my question.
Should the prison population increase, what would the consequences be for the inmates, the employees and the public?
National President, Union of Canadian Correctional Officers, Confédération des syndicats nationaux (CSN)
Let's start with the population.
Conservative
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Kevin Sorenson
That's good. As long as we're on the issue of drugs and not on whether building more prisons is good or bad, that's fine. We want to stay focused on the study that we're doing.
National President, Union of Canadian Correctional Officers, Confédération des syndicats nationaux (CSN)
Mr. Sorenson, should I be answering the question or not? I'm not sure what I'm doing now.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Kevin Sorenson
You're going to answer. You are to answer a question in regard to drugs in prison.