Public Safety Committee on Oct. 4th, 2011

[Kim Pate]

It's likely a bit beyond the purview, although it isn't if you're looking more broadly within this committee at sentencing options—certainly Catherine would be much more familiar, from her vast experience in youth issues as well—but one of the areas we know has worked very well is when you have someone with addiction issues and a sentencing opportunity that provides for them to go into secure treatment types of facilities, there is far greater success then sending them into a prison setting.

Some sort of conditional sentence, with the condition of treatment, which they're obviously agreeing to—they would have to agree to it to obtain that sentence—would be far more preferable. That's certainly our experience, with men, women, and young people. Then they're engaged in treatment. They're in a situation where they're having their needs met. They're likely to get more immediate treatment in a way that contributes to their successful integration, and, most importantly as well, to public safety overall.

[Jasbir Sandhu, NDP, Surrey North, BC]

I've heard conflicting information on how many programs are available in the prisons. Could you enlighten this committee as to whether or not there are waiting times, and how often those programs are available? What impact do they have on the prisoners' chances of being rehabilitated?

[Kim Pate]

Certainly there are some very good programs. Canada, rightly and historically—I'm not sure how much longer it will last, given the numbers and the delays that are happening—has a very stellar and well-deserved reputation of having one of the best correctional services. One of the challenges is that those inside know that if they speak out about what is happening, they're likely to face some challenges, including potentially their jobs.

I'm not sure you'll get accurate information from witnesses. But I would ask you to seek information on the number of people in programs, how long the programs last, the need for those programs in their correctional treatment plans, how timely they are, and on what basis they have access to those treatment programs. I'm suggesting this because I certainly have lots of anecdotal evidence for you, but I'm having trouble getting this data as well.

Routinely, when I'm asked to testify at an inquest, I'm given a whole shopping list of programs. I have no doubt that every one of those programs may have been offered in that prison at some time. They might not have been offered for two or three years in some cases. They may have been offered to only one person in one case. So you really need to tie in how many programs, how often they're offered, how long they existed, and how many people benefited from them. You will find, sadly, that it's increasingly very difficult for people to get access to programs.

We routinely encourage prisoners to put in requests for programs every month if they need to. They're now being challenged to withdraw those requests so it doesn't look bad when they go to the National Parole Board and say, “I'm applying. I haven't completed all of the programs in my correctional treatment plan. Now prison is hindering my ability to reintegrate because I can't get access to the programs I need. Here is a sheet of 10, 20, 30, 40, 50 or more requests I've made for this program that everybody agrees, including me, that I need access to.”

I wish I could give you exact numbers, but I cannot get that information.

[Catherine Latimer]

There's lots of room for additional types of programming as well. There are some good and effective programs, but a lot of the alcohol and drug treatment models are based on white, adult male addiction. They may not necessarily be culturally relevant or gender specific. They certainly don't do very well with youth. For example, the drug courts, which work fairly well when they work, are premised on the notion that a person has bottomed out. They're tired. They've had a long history of petty crimes involving drugs and they're looking for an opportunity to change.

Young people are not at that part of their lives. Some of them are looking for excitement. Some of them are trying to conform to peer behaviour. Some are really using drugs to work out a negative self-image or a negative set of circumstances. I think you need a lot more tailored programming for that, because it's often accompanied by mental health issues. There are other reasons why drugs become enticing. You need to substitute something that is exciting for them, like downhill skiing or gourmet cooking--something other than drug use. So there needs to be a more substitution-like strategy for the underlying motivation.

There are lots of opportunities to think about different types of programming. Correctional Service Canada has been very good at developing and testing programs. If more resources were given to Correctional Service through the national anti-drug strategy renewal, with the idea of looking at some of the innovative, more tailored programming, there might be more programs and more successful programs.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kevin Sorenson]

Thank you both very much.

Mr. Aspin is next, please, for seven minutes.

[Jay Aspin, Conservative, Nipissing—Timiskaming, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I'd like to thank both of you ladies for coming to testify with your vast amount of experience.

We heard last week from Commissioner Head and union president Pierre Mallette that drugs are often brought into prisons by criminal organizations and elements such as that. They often try to corner the prison black market by throwing drugs over prison walls so their cronies can sell them on the inside.

Do you support additional measures to hold offenders accountable when they are caught receiving illegal drugs, specifically focusing on inmates? There don't seem to be any repercussions for these individuals.

[Catherine Latimer]

My preference would be to actually focus on those who are exploiting the market of offenders' vulnerability to drugs, who are making a profit on getting those drugs to inmates, and try to focus the enforcement elements on that.

If you're looking at inmates in facilities, many of them are suffering from an illness of addiction. They don't really have capacity to resist that, and they are kind of less criminally responsible, I would say, than those who are feeding that vulnerability for their own profit. I think there is an area for targeting enforcement, but I would prefer to go there than to think that the individual inmates, who don't otherwise have access to something they need, should be penalized.

[Kim Pate]

I think that already does happen. Again, I'd question the validity of the information you're receiving. I just had a situation last week where I was called by one of our advocates for women who were presumed to be part of receiving drugs that never arrived, and one went from minimum security to maximum security. All of them have outside police investigations happening, and if evidence is found, they certainly will all receive outside criminal charges and longer sentences. Show me where that hasn't happened.

I can tell you, though, that we've gone to Corrections at times, or to the union, with information about individuals we know who are bringing things in. We're hearing about it—exchanging sex for drugs, whatever—and very rarely have we seen those followed up. On only a couple of occasions have we actually seen people significantly penalized. One was a hairdresser at the prison for women, whose contract was cut. Everybody knew what was happening there for many years, and women wouldn't report. When it was a psychologist, nobody would report. When it was a senior correctional officer, nobody would report because people were fearful of the repercussions.

I'm not suggesting it's all staff, but surely everybody in this room knows that when you have 20% coming in apparently through—Corrections is saying—visitors, and the minuscule amount coming over the wall, there's got to be some other avenue by which it's coming in. Almost everybody knows, and it's the unspoken truth that it comes in, in other ways as well. Certainly, I've been at the prison when all the staff have walked around the security barriers or have not had ion scans; all of us coming in as visitors do. Sometimes I'm encouraged not to go through the security testing, but on principle I require that I go through the security testing because I never want to be.... Certainly, there have been times when, if I could have been shut out of the institutions, I would have been—and I have been. I would never provide an opportunity for there to be any—any—doubt as to whether I was doing something that would be considered illegal.

So I would encourage you to check the information and the sources of those pieces of information.

[Jay Aspin, Conservative, Nipissing—Timiskaming, ON]

Okay. As a follow up, do you both think that someone can be legitimately rehabilitated when they're engaged in this kind of activity?

[Kim Pate]

Do you mean someone who's trafficking in drugs?

[Jay Aspin, Conservative, Nipissing—Timiskaming, ON]

The inmate who's targeted.

[Kim Pate]

If it's someone with addictions, absolutely. We see it many times over, and in many families—it would be the rare family in this country that doesn't have someone with addiction issues in its midst, whether or not the family acknowledges it. Certainly, whether it's NA, AA, or many of the other self-help programs, they're premised on the fact that people can and do change. We certainly do have lots of examples of those successes.

Trafficking is not necessarily people who do use drugs. Those who do use drugs are usually the ones caught, quite frankly, because they get caught up. The ones who don't use and traffic are often engaged in a business of sorts, and none of us wants to encourage that. Quite the opposite, whether it's for our own children, whether it's for prisoners, or for whomever. So we'd like to see that changed, obviously.

But when the stakes go up and the rewards become higher, in fact, some would say—and some research would show, as Dr. Diane Riley said 20 years ago to Corrections—you likely will drive up the business and create a greater problem for yourself.

[Jay Aspin, Conservative, Nipissing—Timiskaming, ON]

I'm just wondering, from your vast experience, how you would both rank our prison system. I'm particularly interested from an international perspective. Could you do that for me?

[Catherine Latimer]

I think the prison system has been a model system. I think the Corrections and Conditional Release Act, which was brought in under the Mulroney government, has been viewed as a significant piece of corrections legislation throughout the world. I think it is something to be emulated.

I am a little worried with the direction things are going in now, and particularly the notion that the overcrowding is going to undo a lot of the excellent programming and supports that had been available through our corrections system. And some of the legislative amendments that are being proposed I don't think will, shall we say, increase our international stature in the area of corrections.

[Kim Pate]

I would agree. I think we've seen a trajectory in that direction much faster for women, because women have been the fastest growing prison population, particularly indigenous women and women with mental health issues, for some time now. We've been seeing the massive overcrowding already happening in the women's prisons, and that's only likely to increase.

Corrections has told me that of two of the bills alone from last session, one has impacted 100 women. When we have a population of 500, at that time, that's significant. And now we've already seen a bump from Bill C-25, with another 50 to 60 women coming into the system. So we're likely to see quite a significant impact.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kevin Sorenson]

Thank you.

We'll move now to Mr. Scarpaleggia, please.

[Francis Scarpaleggia, Liberal, Lac-Saint-Louis, QC]

Thank you.

In terms of the new prisons, are we building new prisons or are we simply building add-ons to existing prisons? There's a bit of confusion about this. Are we actually building new buildings on new land where there was nothing else before, or are we just incorporating new wings?

[Catherine Latimer]

I think there is some confusion about what is actually being done. Some of the information we have is that they're building secure cells in medium security facilities, which raises a whole lot of issues in terms of Corrections policies.

There will be a need for additional cell space to avoid overcrowding to such an extent that it violates section 12 charter rights related to cruel and unusual punishment. The California system has been asked by the Supreme Court of the United States to reduce its prison population base to below 137.5% of prison capacity, and many of the provincial facilities are already well in excess of that. Our understanding is that some areas within the federal prison system are in excess of that now.

[Francis Scarpaleggia, Liberal, Lac-Saint-Louis, QC]

You're aware of plans to add to prison capacity. Do you feel that those plans will increase prison capacity enough, or will we still be short of prison space going into the foreseeable future? That's one question.

Second, when there are plans for prison extensions or for adding capacity in any way, what checks and balances are there to ensure that the facilities we're adding meet certain minimum standards? For example, if you add capacity, it can't all be cell blocks. It has to include some common areas, I imagine, and areas where treatment programs can be offered.

Who's checking on this to make sure that the plans are good plans, if one can look at it that way? Are you consulted as prisoners' rights organizations? Is Mr. Sapers consulted? Is there any oversight on the plans for prison expansion?

[Kim Pate]

One of the significant recommendations made by Louise Arbour and by the Canadian Human Rights Commission in 2003 in a report they then released in 2004 was for external oversight. In particular, Louise Arbour talked of the need for judicial oversight of situations where correctional treatment interfered with the administration of a just and fair sentence, and to administer when the rule of--

[Marie-Claude Morin, NDP, Saint-Hyacinthe—Bagot, QC]

I'm sorry to interrupt you, but I'd like to call a point of order. This has nothing to do with drugs right now. I don't see the link. I'm sorry.

[Francis Scarpaleggia, Liberal, Lac-Saint-Louis, QC]

I'm getting there.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kevin Sorenson]

I want to thank my colleague from the New Democratic Party.

Can you make sure that our conversation remains on the...?

It's a point of order, and I think it's only fair. Other sides bring it up, so when the opposition does, I want to as well. Keep our comments not to the expansion of prisons, not to all the generic overriding issues you may think are important, but more specifically to the drugs in prisons.

[Francis Scarpaleggia, Liberal, Lac-Saint-Louis, QC]

In response to Madam Morin, I asked in one of my questions if there would be sufficient room for offering treatment programs. So it was related to drugs.

I will move on to narrow in a little more specifically.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kevin Sorenson]

Maybe move on, yes.

Thank you.