Evidence of meeting #54 for Public Safety and National Security in the 41st Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was rcmp.
A recording is available from Parliament.
Spokesperson, International Civil Liberties Monitoring Group
My main point has to do with joint operations. We know now that there are joint operations between the RCMP and CBSA. All I want is clarification. I'm pleased that you provided for joint reviews, but it's not clear that it covers the territory.
Conservative
Candice Bergen Conservative Portage—Lisgar, MB
What I think is important is that the former complaints commission is being replaced. The bill is following many of the recommendations of Justice O'Connor. One of the main things Justice O'Connor recommended, and something which this bill addresses, is the ability for the new complaints commission, the civilian review and complaints commission, to have access to information. I'm going to read from the bill:
Subject to sections 45.4 and 45.42, the Commission is entitled to have access to any information under the control, or in the possession, of the Force that the Commission considers is relevant to exercise of its powers, or the performance or its duties and functions....
It goes on. It also can subpoena information where it feels it's necessary. If an investigation crosses over from a complaint that would be handled by the complaints commission to a criminal investigation, that's where it would go to an investigative body that is already set up. There are four provinces where they are set up. It then becomes a criminal investigation. The same powers that any—
Conservative
Candice Bergen Conservative Portage—Lisgar, MB
—investigative body would have would be extended to those jurisdictional investigative bodies.
I do hear what you're saying, where you want it to be very clearly laid out, that they are able to have joint investigations with, as you said, SIRC—
Spokesperson, International Civil Liberties Monitoring Group
Not just with provincial organizations. Most of the INSETs—
Conservative
Spokesperson, International Civil Liberties Monitoring Group
If I may be clear, most of the INSETs—
Conservative
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Kevin Sorenson
You might get it in on another question.
Ms. Doré Lefebvre, you have seven minutes.
Rosane Doré Lefebvre NDP Alfred-Pellan, QC
Thank you, Chair.
First of all, I would like to thank you Mr. Allmand, Ms. Robichaud and Ms. Séguin, for being here today. We greatly appreciate your comments on Bill C-42. My questions pertain to Ms. Robichaud and Ms. Séguin's work, and their opinion of Bill C-42.
I know that you have done a great deal of work on sexual harassment in the workplace. You have mainly focused on helping people who are not unionized and your work has been done on an individual basis. I am certain this is greatly appreciated by people who enjoy less protection under labour standards.
You mentioned Bill C-42's inadequacies and lack of firmness. In your opinion, handling harassment complaints in the workplace should be an obligation and not an option, as is currently the case. It will remain so since the commissioner will still have the power to decide whether or not to implement the internal review committee's recommendations.
Do you believe Bill C-42 does not take sexual and psychological harassment cases seriously enough? Would it be possible to go to greater lengths in order to treat this problem more seriously?
Executive Director, Groupe d'aide et d'information sur le harcèlement sexuel au travail de la province de Québec
I had a quick look at the code of conduct and didn't find any references to sexual harassment. I am in favour of Bill C-42, but I do not understand all of its content. However, when people experience harassment, they try to find a way out, places that will help them. When they don't find them, they think they have nowhere to go.
These things are often dealt with at the Labour Standards Commission, which supports non-unionized employees. Employers have to act. They don't have any alternatives. That said, the response can vary, but it nevertheless makes small businesses do something. I think it would be good for the RCMP to have to do something.
NDP
Rosane Doré Lefebvre NDP Alfred-Pellan, QC
Certainly, the obligation to act must be taken into account. Since it is not mandatory for the RCMP to take action when there is a case of employee harassment, do you not believe that that undermines the confidence of women who want to work for the RCMP?
Executive Director, Groupe d'aide et d'information sur le harcèlement sexuel au travail de la province de Québec
We can see that with the articles that have been published this year. We see people ready to come testify today, after having waited 20 years to tell us what they experienced. They stayed silent because they valued their jobs. It is also because they did not trust the system that was supposed to help them.
Our organization has found that employers who take their responsibilities very seriously receive fewer complaints. People who work at those places know what the limits are and what the employer's position is. Employees are educated at those kinds of companies, which leads to fewer complaints. When complaints are filed, there is a mechanism to resolve them quickly.
Does that answer your question?
NDP
Rosane Doré Lefebvre NDP Alfred-Pellan, QC
Yes, that answers my question very well.
Do you believe that is an example of the right way to address harassment, whether psychological or sexual, in the workplace?
Executive Director, Groupe d'aide et d'information sur le harcèlement sexuel au travail de la province de Québec
It should be an obligation.
Executive Director, Groupe d'aide et d'information sur le harcèlement sexuel au travail de la province de Québec
Yes, an obligation and not a choice.
NDP
Rosane Doré Lefebvre NDP Alfred-Pellan, QC
In your opinion, what is missing from Bill C-42 that could give it more substance?
Executive Director, Groupe d'aide et d'information sur le harcèlement sexuel au travail de la province de Québec
We think it lacks a structure. The structure is not put in place. Even if it is in another section, it's not clear. In any case, it is written with words that suggest that recommendations can be made.
Personally, if I were a victim of harassment, I'm not sure I would make a complaint. If I made a complaint, what would happen next is far from clear.
NDP
Rosane Doré Lefebvre NDP Alfred-Pellan, QC
You have worked on many cases of workplace harassment, especially regarding women. Do you have examples to provide us with on this? Here, we are trying to work on changing the RCMP's internal culture. In your testimony, you mentioned a little earlier the 150 women looking to launch a class action lawsuit.
Have you seen a similar type of internal culture that needed to be changed in workplaces? Could you give us concrete examples of that?
Executive Director, Groupe d'aide et d'information sur le harcèlement sexuel au travail de la province de Québec
I know that once a year, the help group targets an organization that calls us to give training. As I said, our main goal is not to give training, but rather to help people who experience this problem. We give training to Montreal's firefighters. When they approached us, it was mostly to address the issue of the culture that existed among firefighters.
It was an everything-goes environment. We had to raise awareness and educate people a lot about the fact that workplace culture can change. It has to change. The change is difficult for everyone, but once it's done, it's crystal clear. In the 1980s, CN made changes to discrimination and sexual harassment policies. This institution was the first to say it feared being flooded with complaints after the decision. However, on the contrary, it received fewer, because things were straightforward.
NDP
Rosane Doré Lefebvre NDP Alfred-Pellan, QC
Excuse me for coming back to this subject. When you made presentations to Montreal's firefighters, they admitted to you that it was part of—
Executive Director, Groupe d'aide et d'information sur le harcèlement sexuel au travail de la province de Québec
Yes. When they came to us to offer training, they asked us to help them establish their policies against harassment and conduct internal investigations. The way people talk to each other was part of their culture and it included jokes. However, it is important to understand that it takes two people to make a joke. When one person isn't laughing, it is no longer a joke. When one person in particular is laughed at or isolated, it is no longer a joke. Therefore, we had to work a lot on that. It wasn't so hard. It was harder to convince senior management that that culture had to change.