Evidence of meeting #6 for Public Safety and National Security in the 41st Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was staff.
A recording is available from Parliament.
Correctional Investigator, Office of the Correctional Investigator
Of the CCRA?
Yes. As a matter of fact, we have found cases of staff misconduct. However, our recommendations are not disciplinary in nature, so it's always about policy compliance. But we have certainly investigated complaints of staff misconduct and have found them to be grounded.
Conservative
Brent Rathgeber Conservative Edmonton—St. Albert, AB
Would those be outlined in your annual report to Parliament or elsewhere, if I were really interested in researching this matter?
Correctional Investigator, Office of the Correctional Investigator
They are but only in the most general way. When we report our roll-up statistics, you'll see staff misconduct and harassment, discrimination complaints. You'll also--
Conservative
Brent Rathgeber Conservative Edmonton—St. Albert, AB
But it wouldn't be broken down into specific allegations of staff misconduct?
October 6th, 2011 / 11:55 a.m.
Correctional Investigator, Office of the Correctional Investigator
Not specifically in regard to searches.
However, I will draw your attention to a recent public interest report we issued that had to do with a lockdown and series of searches at a maximum security penitentiary in British Columbia over 10 days, where there were hundreds of incidents of use of force with firearms, and cell and strip searches. We made a series of observations and recommendations about the inappropriate use of firearms, the lack of compliance with policy on strip searches, and the lack of oversight in terms of the institution being locked down.
Conservative
Brent Rathgeber Conservative Edmonton—St. Albert, AB
Can visitors file a grievance if they feel mistreated? Or can only a prisoner who invites that visitor into the facility file a grievance, if it's alleged that a visitor was mistreated?
Correctional Investigator, Office of the Correctional Investigator
A visitor can certainly bring a complaint to the Correctional Service. Typically, as far as my office is concerned, it's the inmate who would raise the issue with us on behalf of the visitor.
Conservative
Brent Rathgeber Conservative Edmonton—St. Albert, AB
Thank you, Mr. Sapers. It's nice to see you again.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Kevin Sorenson
Thank you, Mr. Rathgeber. You're under your five minutes.
We'll now move to Mr. Sandhu, please.
NDP
Jasbir Sandhu NDP Surrey North, BC
Thank you, Mr. Chair
Thank you, Mr. Sapers, and Mr. Zinger, for being here this morning.
Before I start my questions, I would like to say that the New Democratic members of this committee are committed to finding cost-effective measures focused squarely on crime prevention and, ultimately, on community safety.
As we explore the issue of drugs and alcohol in our prisons, our goal is to find the most cost-effective ways to reduce drug use in prisons, but, ultimately, this must also include a focus on rehabilitation. We support interdiction measures if they are effective, but as we have heard on this committee, these programs show diminishing returns. Our priority should be a manageable corrections system that can deliver effective rehabilitation programs so that when prisoners are released, they are less likely to re-offend.
My first question is pretty direct. What provides the greatest return on actual investment when we're attempting to manage drug and alcohol abuse in prisons? Is it investment in rehabilitation or interdiction?
Correctional Investigator, Office of the Correctional Investigator
It's my view that there has to be a balance. It's actually more like a tripod than a two-legged stool. It's a combination of supply reduction, demand reduction, and harm reduction brings the best return.
NDP
Jasbir Sandhu NDP Surrey North, BC
I see from your report that we've had an increase in the amount of money being spent on interdiction in the last five years and yet a decrease in the rehabilitation programs and other intervention programs. What percentage would you say should be spent on rehabilitation programs?
Correctional Investigator, Office of the Correctional Investigator
I don't have a magic figure. I can tell you that my general concern is that we see, roughly speaking, 2% of the Correctional Service of Canada's overall budget being spent on core correctional programs. We don't think that's enough, and we base that on the participation rate of offenders in the programs.
On any given day, there may be less than 15% of incarcerated offenders actually engaged in a core correctional program. We know that the demand for those programs is there. We know there are waiting lists to get into these programs, and we know that delay in accessing these programs has tremendous implications for someone's re-integration potential and timely consideration of their conditional release. So we've encouraged the correctional service to put more emphasis on moving people into programs more quickly and ensuring their successful completion of those programs once they've entered them.
NDP
Jasbir Sandhu NDP Surrey North, BC
So what you are saying is that we have wait lines for people to take these programs. What, in your opinion, are the leading problems that limit access to these programs?
Correctional Investigator, Office of the Correctional Investigator
It's physical capacity, simply put, in terms of program space; human resources capacity in terms of qualified personnel to deliver the programs; and mobility issues throughout the correctional system in terms of having offenders in the right security and right physical setting so they can gain access to programs. Right now there is a bit of a mismatch between where offenders are and what their security level is or where they are in the course of their sentence, and their ability to access those core correctional programs.
The positive news in this is that the correctional service has been piloting a new integrated correctional program model, which moves people into programs more quickly. We're waiting to see the evaluations of that model to make sure that program delivery is as valid and has the same impact as the core correctional programs it is replacing.
NDP
Jasbir Sandhu NDP Surrey North, BC
We have a number of bills before the House. How effective will these newly introduced methods be in coping with the expected growth in the size and complexity of prison populations?
Correctional Investigator, Office of the Correctional Investigator
Again, there are a few facets to that question. The correctional services policy of dynamic security is a very good policy. That means you don't simply rely on static security, such as barriers, ion scanning, or gun towers, but you actually require your staff, including your security staff, to have a dynamic relationship with the offender population. That is the best way of being informed, having a safe environment, and having a most effective correctional environment. It also contributes to interdiction, and to people being motivated in terms of program uptake and successful completion of programs, and it also helps in terms of demand reduction.
So it is not simply a matter of needing more guards or higher walls if the numbers go up. It means you also have to have the capacity to maintain that policy of dynamic security, and grow your capacity to make sure that these wait lists for programs, et cetera, don't get any longer.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Kevin Sorenson
All right. Thank you very much, Mr. Sapers.
We will now move to Ms. Hoeppner, please.
Conservative
Candice Bergen Conservative Portage—Lisgar, MB
Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.
Thank you to both gentlemen for being here.
I want to go back to something you just said a few moments ago, Mr. Sapers, and go a little deeper into it, that individuals are on waiting lists to get into these programs, which later affect their applications for parole or other kinds of privileges then.
We've heard testimony about the fact there are programs with no measurement of whether they are successful in getting individuals off drugs and alcohol and no longer addicted.
In your experience, is there any kind of issue with inmates wanting to be part of these programs so they can check off these boxes and say they were part of a program, when there is really no way to measure, nor any accountability, as to whether they were truly successfully in completing these programs?
Correctional Investigator, Office of the Correctional Investigator
Every offender is given a correctional plan after intake and assessment. The Correctional Service of Canada prescribes the plans or programs. You have the men and women in the service who are doing those assessments and saying that they think the criminogenic needs of the prisoners will be addressed if the prisoners are in a particular substance abuse or cognitive program.
Offenders understand that successful progress against their correctional plan is what the parole board will be looking at. Of course it is a motivator; it is designed to be a motivator for them to be involved and engaged in those programs.
The problem seems to be getting into the program. Once you are in, completion rates tend to be pretty good, and the core correctional programs that I mentioned—the ones that are being replaced by the ICPM, the integrated correctional program model—have been very well validated. They do have an impact. They are not perfect, but they do have an impact. They have demonstrated their value.
If your question, simply put, is whether some inmates just want to play the game, sure they do. But that's not the general experience. The general experience is that they are prescribed a correctional plan and work to get into those programs. They understand that the parole board will be looking for program completion. We know that most releases from federal penitentiaries now are not as a result of a discretionary release by the parole board; they are a result of statutory release.
Much of the reason for that is that people are waiving and postponing their parole hearings because they have not been able to gain access to the programs, and so they know they are not going to be supported for parole.
Conservative
Candice Bergen Conservative Portage—Lisgar, MB
I appreciate that.
I think the point I'm wanting to make is that even in general society there are waiting lists for a lot of things that we're all entitled to. Unfortunately, for things like health care, sometimes people have to wait, and these are people who have not broken any laws.
In terms of policy—and here, Mr. Zinger, you mentioned the investment we have made in stopping drugs from getting into prisons—when I'm looking at ways we can suggest to improve the fight against drugs in prisons, programs are important. But I would like to make sure that we're putting taxpayers' dollars into programs that we can actually measure and can actually see are working.
So, exactly, I do appreciate that the programs for prisoners are a good motivator and were created to be a motivator, but I wonder at the same time how we make sure these programs are effective and would suggest that we measure them and not just say, well, it's successful because they completed it. We know that just completing a program isn't always a measure of success.
Executive Director and General Counsel, Office of the Correctional Investigator
The Correctional Service of Canada has developed its substance abuse program, for example, and I think we have to admit the current program is world class, in the sense that it has been accredited by a panel of international experts. It's been independently evaluated and the results are very positive: those who go through that program do lower their addiction issues and their recidivism rates, their reoffending rates. So that's all wonderful.
One of the issues that concerns us is that the Correctional Service of Canada currently is in the transition of moving from its existing, well-accredited, well-recognized programs into a new area, and this is what Mr. Sapers has referred to as that integrated correctional program model.
Historically, for example, the service would provide three types of programs in certain areas—for example, on substance abuse, family violence, and anger management. Each of them would take six months to complete. So if you had those three issues on your correctional plan, it would take you a year and a half to complete those programs.
This new integrated model collapsed all of these programs into one and gives only six months to address the three issues. What we worry about is that we don't know, and I don't believe the service knows, whether that new way of collapsing all of these things into one will be successful in reducing recidivism.
Thank you.
Liberal
Joyce Murray Liberal Vancouver Quadra, BC
Thank you for presenting here at the committee.
I'm new to this committee, so you'll have to bear with my questions as I try to understand the issue this study is about. One of the previous questioners talked about numbers of people in prison. I know that the statistic of 200% of capacity is being used to describe prisons in British Columbia.
Can you tell me how prison overcrowding impacts the goals of this study, essentially meaning rehabilitation, safety of correctional officers, and crime within institutions?
Conservative