Public Safety Committee on Jan. 29th, 2013

[Candice Bergen, Conservative, Portage—Lisgar, MB]

Yes. This has been going on for 20-some years, so it's actually not that new.

Is that something that was discussed at all during the summit? Has it worked in other provinces? As I said, in Manitoba it works very well, but I know that when I was in Alberta, there seemed to be a struggle to get things off the ground and organized.

Can you talk a little bit about that program?

[Mark Potter]

It's a model that's been pretty widely used.

I'd make a distinction here between civilianization and what is typically referred to as tiered policing, which refers to engaging individuals to carry out different and often more basic functions than what a typical police officer would do. Let's take, for example, the U.K., where they have a fairly robust tiered policing framework in place: there are the sworn police officers, who are the majority of the staff; there is the civilian staff within the police service, who often carry out administrative and support functions; and then there are two other categories of police personnel.

The first is what they call police community safety officers. These are individuals who are very engaged in the neighbourhood and the community—understanding their needs, gathering information, and working to solve problems. That is one other level.

The other one is exactly the one you referred to, which is volunteers. They call them special constables in the U.K. We have them in Canada, too. Different police services use them to varying degrees, but they can often be a very helpful resource for meeting policing needs and meeting the needs of the communities in terms of visibility and some of the more basic functions you don't necessarily want to have a fully sworn officer carrying out.

[Candice Bergen, Conservative, Portage—Lisgar, MB]

I've heard them described as the eyes and ears of the police officers.

Going back to the training costs associated with policing, could any of the three of you talk about how training costs vary? For example, one of the cost savings in provinces that take advantage of RCMP contracts is in training costs. Municipalities that have to train their own police bear those costs themselves. Can you talk about the difference between having an overall federal training program, such as in the RCMP, compared to, for example, the City of Winkler, in my community, which recruits and trains its own police?

[D/Commr Steve Graham]

In terms of basic training, a certain percentage goes back to the jurisdictions, to the provinces, that pay a share of those costs. In terms of training generally—ongoing general police training, re-qualification for firearms, use of force, supervisory training, and so on—those, again, are costs that are sourced back to the particular function the individual is coming from. There is a whole apparatus working behind the scenes that allocates those costs on a percentage basis at agreed-to percentages covered under the agreement.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kevin Sorenson]

Thank you very much.

We'll move to Monsieur Rousseau.

Mr. Rousseau, you have five minutes.

[Jean Rousseau, NDP, Compton—Stanstead, QC]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

My question is for Mr. Potter or Mr. Tupper.

What might the repercussions be of the new orientations of your study, particularly with respect to remote police forces? For example, I'm thinking of the Canada Border Service Agency officers, who carry out police-related duties at customs and are already heavily burdened by their daily tasks. How will it apply at the border?

[Mark Potter]

I'm not in a position to answer that. I think the CBSA would be able to give you more information on what they have been doing in terms of efficiency improvements and operational reviews.

[Jean Rousseau, NDP, Compton—Stanstead, QC]

The 2012-2013 budget already includes budget cuts of several hundreds of millions of dollars for the Canada Border Services Agency and the RCMP. Given that employer-employee labour relations are already very difficult in this situation, how do you think these reforms will be received on the ground? How are you going to implement savings, whether they're economies of scale or computerizing this or that service when, let's be frank, police officers are already seriously shaken by these reforms and cutbacks?

[Mark Potter]

I'm afraid I'm not in a position to comment on CBSA cuts or reforms that might be under way. I just don't have that information.

[Jean Rousseau, NDP, Compton—Stanstead, QC]

If this study is done, regardless of the direction it's given, there will be repercussions on the ground. What are we going to tell the people on the ground? What will we do for their morale? We are talking about savings, but these are human beings, people who work in the field. And all these people should be represented at the table.

As we know, employees are more efficient when they are proud of what they do. But how are you going to establish a healthy relationship in order to make this more efficient? I don't see this anywhere here.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kevin Sorenson]

Go ahead, Mr. Potter.

[Mark Potter]

Thank you.

Yes, I think that's a very important issue. The involvement of all aspects of the policing community in reforms is absolutely essential if you want to bring about lasting change, so in organizing the summit, we worked very closely with the three main national policing associations, including the Canadian Police Association, which represents front-line officers. Their president and their members were very much involved in the planning of the summit, in the dialogue at the summit, and in raising important issues.

There were also some interesting discussions among, for example, academics who looked at reform efforts both in the U.S. and the U.K. Their studies have indicated that in many instances front-line police officers were not engaged in developing reforms, in scoping out how you can improve efficiency. That was often the reason the changes didn't succeed, so that's an important element that you need to build into the program.

Another example is that when they're looking at doing efficiency reviews in the U.K., they realize they need to have the front-line officers directly involved in that process, not only to get their perspective but to build a capacity for continuous improvement. It's through that engagement that you can bring about lasting change.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kevin Sorenson]

You have one minute, sir.

[Jean Rousseau, NDP, Compton—Stanstead, QC]

I have one minute.

I would simply like to make one comment.

When I speak with people in the field, either RCMP officers or Sûreté du Québec officers, they often tell me that administrative duties make up such a large part of their daily tasks that they no longer have time for prevention work on the ground. How will this be addressed in the study?

[Mark Potter]

Absolutely. I think that's an essential element, as well as breaking down their tasks and asking if that's adding value. Is that contributing to the safety of the community? Could that officer be doing other things that are more useful?

[Jean Rousseau, NDP, Compton—Stanstead, QC]

Thank you very much.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kevin Sorenson]

Thank you, Mr. Rousseau.

Mr. Leef, you have five minutes.

[Ryan Leef, Conservative, Yukon, YT]

Thank you, Mr. Chair, and welcome to our witnesses.

I want to go back over a few things, because we tend to hear generalized comments being made that the opposition members hope will stick. I think it's important that we reiterate a few of those and clarify a couple of points before I get to the questions.

We heard a little bit earlier that there's concern that at the summit the chiefs weren't invited, but of course, Mr. Potter, you clarified that. You indicated that in fact they were, and that a lot of thought was put behind who was going to be invited. I thought that was great.

Then Mr. Tupper clarified that there was no reduction in the anti-gang programs, and that the money in fact was going out the door more now than in the past 10 years.

The third point brought up was that there was a concern that the first nation program had been cut, but Mr. Tupper, you indicated that it's been protected and is stable.

There was also a comment made that front-line policing service has been cut, but you mentioned that we'd seen an increase from $6 billion to $12 billion in the last handful of years, and you haven't been cutting on the front line. I've read “Police Resources in Canada” and seen constant-dollar increases in police resourcing in that publication year after year, particularly more in light of the need for recruitment, with around two-thirds of the police force—I think I've got my numbers right—preparing to retire between that time period.

Then we just heard that there were cuts to CBSA. I know, Mr. Potter, you weren't prepared to comment on that, but you probably have a great interest in it, so I'll just let you know that there was actually a 26% increase to the CBSA. That hasn't been cut either, so let's hope none of that sticks.

Now let's get to some questions.

I've seen some great work done in the Yukon Territory in terms of efficiencies and new modelling with the Royal Canadian Mounted Police. It does touch on some of the questions that Mr. Rousseau talked about in terms of police engagement. They've increased the limited-duration posting time periods, as an example. That was directly what members wanted. They were just getting a foothold in the community in two years, and they said, “Why don't you let us stay for three or four years?” That was one area.

As well, reserve policing got brought back into the territory wholeheartedly in the last four or five years, with retired members coming back. I know that's been an advantage to policing services and the RCMP, and it was driven at the members' level. They said they needed this for training, needed this for leave accruement.

The RCMP has now moved into an agreement with the Whitehorse Correctional Centre to do their cellblock services. They've moved cellblock services out of the detachment up to the correctional centre. It's provided a higher level of efficiency and more time on the road for police officers. That's another thing driven by the front-line police officers in the RCMP there, and it's great use of community partnerships and relationships.

Moving from those operational things to the legislative end, is there legislation that we can look at to improve administrative efficiencies or financial efficiencies? One thing I'm looking at is the RCMP accountability act, for example. There is definitely a tremendous cost in leave and internal grievances and those sorts of things, and legislation can help reduce that burden, but what about legislation regarding proceeds of crime? Money that police officers generate in this country by fighting crime generally goes into general coffers. Is there some creative strategy we could use to see some of that returned to police work or given back directly into policing? Is there any other legislation?

I'll open this to anybody who has a comment on that.

[Mark Potter]

Perhaps I'll kick it off.

Certainly the bill you referred to, Bill C-42, is in third reading. The RCMP accountability act will strengthen the complaints regime, but as you noted, it will lead to certain improvements in HR management that should realize greater efficiencies within the RCMP, going forward, to manage their human resources, their discipline, their grievance processes, and so on. That's the federal responsibility.

As noted, the jurisdictional responsibilities are quite clear. You have, for example, in both Ontario and B.C. comprehensive reviews under way right now on their policing acts and their policing models. I expect we may see more of this across the country, given the fiscal challenges, but those governments are looking at their police service acts in a very comprehensive way, asking whether they need to make legislative changes to advance policing and improve efficiency and effectiveness. It's happening at that level.

Maybe I'll leave it at that.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kevin Sorenson]

Thank you.

Mr. Graham, we'll pick up on some of his question maybe a little later on.

Go ahead, Mr. Rafferty.

[John Rafferty, NDP, Thunder Bay—Rainy River, ON]

Thank you very much, Chair. It's great to be back.

Thank you for being here.

I found it interesting in Mr. Toews' remarks that he says we're all in this together; as the director general of policing policy, you know that's not true. There are police services in this country that are left far behind. I'll give you an example in a minute.

All of Mr. Toews' remarks in his opening remarks at the conference, and things you have been talking about today, make an assumption that all police services are at least at a certain level in this country—that they are at a point where perhaps they need to, as you say, become more efficient and more effective, but that they have the basics there. However, as you are aware as director general, there are police services, such as first nations police services, that are woefully inadequate in terms of their efficiency and their effectiveness.

There are a number of first nations police forces in northern Ontario, and on the road system they are not so bad. However, when they have to deal with 39 fly-in communities and not have the money there....

I know Mr. Toews says you can't buy this and that it's not about buying police services, but a service like the Nishnawbe-Aski Police Service in northwestern Ontario has virtually no communications equipment. They use cellphones. They have inadequate housing. There was an instance, I think last year, of a young officer being flown out with a burst spleen because of mould in his house. Officers continually go one week and two weeks past any rotation because there's no one to replace them. The OPP, which used to pick up the slack a little bit, over the last couple of years is no longer doing it because of their own budget restraints.

I know it probably didn't come up at this conference, but as you're planning and when you're talking about efficiencies and effectiveness and you have a police force like the one in northwestern Ontario, the Nishnawbe-Aski Police Service, that simply can't do the job.... I'm sure you're aware of the issues surrounding those communities in northern Ontario, particularly the fly-in communities, and drug and alcohol abuse, and so on and so forth, and all the issues associated there.

Is there any talk at all about dealing with those police services and making sure they are at least up to the standards of other police services across Canada?

[The Chair, Conservative, Kevin Sorenson]

Go ahead, Mr. Tupper.

[Shawn Tupper]

There is ongoing discussion about the first nations policing program and the kinds of investments.

I think I would first want to point out that we need to remember that the first nations policing program is designed to add additional policing services on top of what the provinces already provide through their policing programs. No community is without policing, from the perspective that the provinces have a baseline of policing they provide.

You quite rightly point out a significant challenge in policing in Canada, which is how to deal with remote communities that don't have the same kind of access. This isn't an aboriginal issue. It's a reality in Canada that we do have to fly into some communities, and we have those challenges. Aboriginal communities tend to be isolated in many jurisdictions, and so they confront these issues across the board.

We have given advice to the government, and the government is discussing the future of that program and has been discussing with the provinces and territories the future of that program to determine the kinds of investments to make. We're going through exactly the same thing in looking at first nations policing as Mark is going through in looking at policing generally, which is finding what the most efficient model is and what the right kinds of investments are. We have a $120 million program, and we really do need to stop and think about whether we are spending that money in the right way.

You quite rightly point out that there are challenges in those communities that focus largely on some of the facilities and the tools they have to deliver policing. We are in active discussions with the provinces and territories, again across the land, to address those kinds of issues and try to find the models that will allow us to fund those things adequately.

[John Rafferty, NDP, Thunder Bay—Rainy River, ON]

Just to clarify, there are in fact communities in northwestern Ontario that are without policing.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kevin Sorenson]

You have 15 seconds.