Evidence of meeting #71 for Public Safety and National Security in the 41st Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was officers.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Michael Cunningham  Chief Constable, Staffordshire Police
Curt Taylor Griffiths  Professor, School of Criminology, Coordinator, Police Studies Program, Simon Fraser University, As an Individual

8:45 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Kevin Sorenson

Good morning, everyone.

This is meeting number 71 of the Standing Committee on Public Safety and National Security.

It is Thursday, February 14, 2013. Happy Valentine's, to each one of you.

We are continuing our study of economics of policing in Canada.

In our first hour, we have appearing before us by video conference from Staffordshire, England, the Chief Constable with the Staffordshire Police, Mr. Michael Cunningham.

I don't know what time it is in Britain, but it's a quarter to nine here. We're very glad he's able to appear this morning.

The committee thanks our witnesses for appearing today to help us with our study of policing in Canada.

Sir, I invite you to make some opening remarks before we proceed to questions from the members of Parliament in our committee.

8:45 a.m.

Chief Michael Cunningham Chief Constable, Staffordshire Police

Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman.

Thank you for the opportunity to speak to you.

I want to test that you can hear me okay.

8:45 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Kevin Sorenson

You're coming through loud and clear, but with somewhat of a British accent.

8:45 a.m.

Chief Constable, Staffordshire Police

Chief Michael Cunningham

That must be the technology because you sound loud from across the water also.

What I thought I would do, Chairman, would be to set out the context of Staffordshire Police and the situation in the U.K. and then tell you how we have responded to it here in Staffordshire.

Members may be aware that the spending squeeze in the U.K. is affecting all elements of the public sector, including policing. To give you some context, the budget of Staffordshire Police was about £184 million in April 2010. The squeeze means that we will be taking approximately £38 million out of that budget over a period of four years. The challenge is for us to dramatically cut our cost base and to maintain high levels of operational delivery. In my budget, 86% is spent on staffing costs. Therefore, a reduction of approximately 20% means that we have to cut into salary costs. To that end, there will be effectively 300 fewer police officers and 300 fewer police staff members, non-police officers, by the end of the four-year period. There is potential for a further squeeze beyond 2014, for which we are bracing ourselves.

This has meant that here in Staffordshire Police we have not recruited any officers into the police force for some three years now and we are managing the shrinking of the organization by not recruiting and requiring officers to retire when they reach pensionable service age. This is the same across the country. Police officer numbers in England and Wales now are at about an 11-year low. By 2015, there will be approximately 15,000 fewer police officers in the U.K. than there were at the beginning of the process in April 2010.

What that has required us to do is basically to go back to first principles. If we were to try to continue to police in the way that we have always done so with significantly fewer people, we would simply fall over. The scale of the cuts has required us to take a transformational approach to the delivery of policing and to redesign policing delivery in ways that had previously been unthinkable.

In terms of first principles, what I did here in Staffordshire was to ask what is policing built upon? Very clearly the model that we have undertaken here in the U.K. is very much about local policing solving local problems. So I was able to commit in years one and two of the spending cuts that we would not reduce any neighbourhood officers. In other words, every other part of the business had to be scrutinized to take the hit. It has required us to re-engineer our business processes and to collaborate more effectively with other police forces and crucially with other public sector agencies.

If I may say, even with the taking of already well over £15 million out of my budget, crime has continued to reduce, public confidence has continued to increase, and public satisfaction with the service that we are delivering is still very high, at about 88% of people who receive a service from us being either satisfied or very satisfied, and that is in the teeth of the significant cuts we're facing.

We have had to look very closely at not necessarily the numbers of officers we have, but the productivity of those officers and how we have deployed them. We have reviewed things like our shift patterns, we have done away with the concept of things like double-crewing unless it's absolutely necessary, and we are thinking about how we can make our services more accessible to members of the public in different ways. For example, if I can take £1 million out of my estate costs, it means I don't have to take that £1 million out of salary costs. So we're looking at, wherever possible, if we can share public access points and buildings with other public sector agencies. It seems a madness to me at a time of such public sector austerity that in one town we may have a police station next door to a town hall, next door to a library, next door to a school, when we ought to be thinking much more dramatically about the rationalization of public estate.

In terms of our business processes, it was at this point we engaged with the private sector. The consulting company, KPMG, worked with us to do two things. One was they brought expertise to us around business process redesign to take out inefficiencies in some of our core processes such as core handling, prison handling, and crime management. They injected significant pace and professionalism and expertise into this work for us. The second thing they did was they built up a capacity within my force so we did not become dependent upon the consultants going forward. It was difficult because we had to pay significant amounts of money up front at a time when there isn't a lot of money about, but the return on investment was significant. The lessons for private sector engagement are the following. We had to be crystal clear about what was required, we had to build capacity and not reliance, we had to challenge them on innovative ways of paying for their services, and we had to think of new models of engagement with the private sector that are beyond simple consultancy and outsourcing.

I would like to make just a couple of final points, Chairman. One of the things that I think this affords us is an opportunity to have discussions that we probably ought to have been having anyway about the use of public money. There is much closer cross-public sector delivery in some of our crucial areas of activity. One example I gave when I was over, a month or so ago, was in relation to a multi-agency safeguarding hub, where we have police officers co-located and jointly managed with social workers and with health professionals dealing with the early intervention of our most vulnerable people in our communities, vulnerable adults and children at risk.

Two things have happened as a result of that. The first thing is that the operation is far cheaper than it was, because we're able to co-locate and jointly manage. Crucially, though, it is more effective because we're able to share information and design interventions far more effectively than was previously the case.

Finally, I will offer a reflection on how this has been in terms of leadership. Leading through austerity is a significant challenge. The real learning, for me, is that we have to maintain confidence and optimism with the people we are leading if we are to continue to deliver effective public services at a significantly reduced cost. That in itself has been a leadership challenge. I am not saying I have always got it right, but we've given it a very good go.

Thank you.

8:55 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Kevin Sorenson

Thank you very much to our guest, to our Chief Constable in Staffordshire.

We'll now move into our first round of questioning.

We'll start with Ms. Bergen, please, for seven minutes.

8:55 a.m.

Conservative

Candice Bergen Conservative Portage—Lisgar, MB

Thank you very much, Chair.

Thank you, Chief Cunningham, for being here with us today. We appreciate you taking the time.

You provided some very interesting information. I have a few questions just to clarify a couple of things.

Again, when did you begin the cuts that you've been talking about? In what year did they start?

8:55 a.m.

Chief Constable, Staffordshire Police

8:55 a.m.

Conservative

Candice Bergen Conservative Portage—Lisgar, MB

So it's been just about three years.

Has that been all under your leadership, sir?

8:55 a.m.

Chief Constable, Staffordshire Police

8:55 a.m.

Conservative

Candice Bergen Conservative Portage—Lisgar, MB

Clearly the decisions were made together with, I guess, your city council. They said you needed to cut your budget by a certain percent, and then you had to sit down with your leadership and decide how you were going to do it.

8:55 a.m.

Chief Constable, Staffordshire Police

Chief Michael Cunningham

Yes. In terms of where the funding predominantly comes from in the U.K., about two-thirds of my funding comes from central government. It was central government that decided on the level of cuts. That's the same across the country.

Then I had to sit down, once I knew what the budget forecast was, with my leadership team and redesign how we would deliver services at a significantly reduced cost.

8:55 a.m.

Conservative

Candice Bergen Conservative Portage—Lisgar, MB

Were any limitations placed on you—i.e., you can involve the private sector for this, but you cannot involve them for that—or were you given basically carte blanche to make the decisions you had to make?

8:55 a.m.

Chief Constable, Staffordshire Police

Chief Michael Cunningham

I was given carte blanche. The only kind of constraint around private sector engagement was the history of policing in the U.K., which preserves policing delivery for sworn police officers paid through the public sector. But private sector engagement varies across U.K. police forces. Some have outsourced significant parts of their business, such as call handling and custody arrangements, and others have engaged the private sector differently.

I chose not to go the wholesale outsourcing route, and to engage the private sector through consultancy.

8:55 a.m.

Conservative

Candice Bergen Conservative Portage—Lisgar, MB

In terms of that consultancy, you mentioned that KPMG came in. One of the challenges we hear, when we talk about the economics of policing and cutting back, is that it's hard to measure. It's not like a factory, let's say, where you can measure input and output and know literally moment by moment where you can make something more efficient.

We know that with good companies, that's exactly what they do. They in fact have a day-to-day and a moment-by-moment way of looking at how to make things more efficient. In policing, obviously that's the challenge. How did KPMG manage that in terms of measuring, in terms of coming in and asking what was effective?

8:55 a.m.

Chief Constable, Staffordshire Police

Chief Michael Cunningham

They worked with our staff. This is where I think we've had to make significant improvements, around the very point you make: measuring productivity. It is simply not good enough, I think, when we are working with such significant financial challenges, to say that we cannot capture productivity and efficiency.

What the private sector was able to assist us with was that we able to look at our deployment practices, the workload of officers, the number of incidents they dealt with, and the number of crimes they dealt with, and to look at where we could be much more efficient around how we deployed staff.

They were also able to design and map out our core business processes—for example, from the arrest of an individual through their detention and subsequent interviewing. When that process was mapped out, we were able to capture where the inefficiencies were, such as where the officers were wasting time waiting around in custody blocks for solicitors or for access to detained persons, and to see if we could squeeze that time so that we could make officers think about their time far more productively.

9 a.m.

Conservative

Candice Bergen Conservative Portage—Lisgar, MB

When you talked about making the cuts, you said 86% of all your costs were in human resources and staff. You made those changes by laying off and by attrition, for example. You said by 2015 there would be 15,000. Was it 15,000 fewer? By 2015, how many fewer police officers will you have?

9 a.m.

Chief Constable, Staffordshire Police

Chief Michael Cunningham

Across the U.K. there will be 15,000 fewer. In my own force, we started with just over 2,000 police officers, and we will lose about 350 of those.

9 a.m.

Conservative

Candice Bergen Conservative Portage—Lisgar, MB

Our concern has been—and it's a question we ask often—whether we will be able to tighten our belts and bring down the cost of policing without cutting front-line officers. I know you mentioned you had been committed to keeping local police solving local problems. Did you have to cut front-line officers, or are you telling us you were able to find other inefficiencies?

9 a.m.

Chief Constable, Staffordshire Police

Chief Michael Cunningham

We largely found other inefficiencies, but the reality is that by the end of this spending review and maybe beyond when we are likely to face further budget pressures, there will, I think, be an inevitable reduction in the numbers of front-line officers. This is a political judgment as much as an operational one. From an operational perspective there are, without any doubt, more efficiencies that can be made. The political judgment is around the question of the numbers of police officers, which the public is very wedded to.

We can definitely make efficiencies, but there will be a reduction in the number of front-line officers. The political judge—

9 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Kevin Sorenson

We lost him.

All right. If we're going to have a minute or two, we have a committee business issue that I would like to very quickly deal with.

Do you think we're going to get a feed back right away?

9 a.m.

Conservative

Candice Bergen Conservative Portage—Lisgar, MB

Hi. You're back.

I have one minute left, sir. So go ahead if you had any other thoughts on that.

9 a.m.

Chief Constable, Staffordshire Police

Chief Michael Cunningham

I think we were discussing the issue of the reduction in front-line officers. There is definitely a political dimension to that, which the U.K. government has decided it's prepared to face. I don't think that's an easy political decision, but it's one that has been taken here. That's the same across other parts of the public sector as well. The challenge for people like me is to try to maintain front-line operational delivery, visibility, and accessibility, and to make the efficiencies wherever we possibly can in back-office functions.

9 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Kevin Sorenson

Thank you very much, Mr. Cunningham.

We'll move to the opposition.

We'll go to Mr. Garrison, please, for seven minutes.

9 a.m.

NDP

Randall Garrison NDP Esquimalt—Juan de Fuca, BC

Thank you very much.

Thank you for being here this morning.

I don't honestly know much about Staffordshire policing. When this process started, were your policing levels significantly different from those in the rest of Britain, and are you primarily an urban policing situation?

9 a.m.

Chief Constable, Staffordshire Police

Chief Michael Cunningham

We have urban and rural areas within Staffordshire. Police forces within the U.K. vary in size fairly significantly, and we are exactly mid-table in relation to the size of the police force. There are some police forces—about 20—that are bigger than we are and about 20 that are smaller than we are.