Evidence of meeting #73 for Public Safety and National Security in the 41st Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was witnesses.

A video is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Commissioner Todd G. Shean  Assistant Commissioner, Federal and International Operations, Royal Canadian Mounted Police

10:20 a.m.

A/Commr Todd G. Shean

No. I think you have to understand that there's only a certain investigational capacity. There are only a certain number of resources to undertake investigations, and in turn, a lot of those witness protection efforts stem from an ongoing investigation. So there's normally only a certain number of admissions into the program.

As I shared with the committee, I feel quite strongly that the program right now is properly resourced to run an effective witness protection program, considering the number of cases that come to us each year.

10:20 a.m.

Liberal

Francis Scarpaleggia Liberal Lac-Saint-Louis, QC

I believe you. I'm not impugning what you're saying. But theoretically, how would we know? This information would be confidential; it wouldn't be accessible under ATIP. Would the police complaints commission be allowed to investigate to see if in fact cost is not operationally a criteria?

10:20 a.m.

A/Commr Todd G. Shean

I can share that over the last year—

10:20 a.m.

Liberal

Francis Scarpaleggia Liberal Lac-Saint-Louis, QC

I believe you.

10:20 a.m.

A/Commr Todd G. Shean

—I've administered the program, nobody's been turned away because there wasn't the budget there to do it, so the admissions that came and the people—

10:20 a.m.

Liberal

Francis Scarpaleggia Liberal Lac-Saint-Louis, QC

How do we know?

10:20 a.m.

A/Commr Todd G. Shean

The program reports to me and....

10:20 a.m.

Liberal

Francis Scarpaleggia Liberal Lac-Saint-Louis, QC

Okay. I believe you. I'm not impugning what you're saying, but if I may go on to another point, Chair....

10:20 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Kevin Sorenson

Two minutes.

10:20 a.m.

Conservative

Vic Toews Conservative Provencher, MB

I can tell you, Mr. Scarpaleggia—

10:20 a.m.

Liberal

Francis Scarpaleggia Liberal Lac-Saint-Louis, QC

Excuse me, Chair—

10:20 a.m.

Conservative

Vic Toews Conservative Provencher, MB

I can tell you that if there are requests for additional resources in any area, I hear about them.

10:20 a.m.

Liberal

Francis Scarpaleggia Liberal Lac-Saint-Louis, QC

But you put constraints on your budget, so something's got to give.

10:20 a.m.

Conservative

Vic Toews Conservative Provencher, MB

No, I've never heard about more requests.

10:20 a.m.

Liberal

Francis Scarpaleggia Liberal Lac-Saint-Louis, QC

Anyway, if I could go on to the next question....

10:20 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Kevin Sorenson

Go ahead.

10:20 a.m.

Liberal

Francis Scarpaleggia Liberal Lac-Saint-Louis, QC

Let's be clear. I take what you say at face value. I'm sure you're correct. I don't doubt what you're saying.

Another of the recommendations in the 2008 committee report, the Air India inquiry report, was that potential candidates for admission to the program be offered the aid of legal counsel during the negotiation of the admission and the signing of the protection contract. Is that foreseen? I didn't see that in the bill.

10:25 a.m.

A/Commr Todd G. Shean

We do it as a matter of course in every instance, and we actually encourage it.

10:25 a.m.

Liberal

Francis Scarpaleggia Liberal Lac-Saint-Louis, QC

Okay, that's good. You said the bill, Minister, is going to increase protection against divulgence of information related to the program. Has that been a problem at this point?

10:25 a.m.

Conservative

Vic Toews Conservative Provencher, MB

As street gangs or other gangs become aggressive or upset about certain initiatives, we've seen them begin to threaten not only the witnesses but also the broader police. That is always a concern. If there's any way we can stop that activity from spreading, we will take it. This is a very good step.

10:25 a.m.

Liberal

Francis Scarpaleggia Liberal Lac-Saint-Louis, QC

So it's related to gang activity. Okay.

10:25 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Kevin Sorenson

Thank you very much, Mr. Scarpaleggia.

We'll now move back to Madame Doré Lefebvre.

You have five minutes.

February 28th, 2013 / 10:25 a.m.

NDP

Rosane Doré Lefebvre NDP Alfred-Pellan, QC

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Mr. Minister, Assistant Commissioner Shean and Mr. Bhupsingh, thank you for joining us today. We greatly appreciate it.

First of all, Mr. Minister, I would like to thank you for the clarifications you have made on the fact that some street gang members can benefit from the witness protection program. As my colleague Mr. Garrison said, a number of stakeholders saw the situation differently. Thank you very much for making those comments today.

If I may, I will continue to talk about street gangs. I have some fears about that. So I wish to raise various issues and share my concerns with you.

We agree with those who are combatting street gangs and who say that giving members who are trying to leave street gangs access to the program is a major tool that they sorely need. Let’s face it. But it is already difficult to meet budgets. Just think of the fact that some groups who are combatting street gangs in municipalities, for instance the Éclipse squad in Montreal, will lose their funding at the end of March.

So how do you plan to implement a bill like that? On the one hand, this bill is very important for witness protection. On the other hand, there are some significant examples of funding being eliminated for the fight against street gangs in Quebec, since the funding is not recurrent, unfortunately. I see a double standard.

I am really wondering how we are going to manage to implement this bill if we eliminate policing tools particularly in Quebec where the mandate is to combat street gangs. What do you think about that?

10:25 a.m.

Conservative

Vic Toews Conservative Provencher, MB

It's exactly as you've stated. It is the mandate of the Quebec government to take that activity. Policing throughout the province is a responsibility of the provincial and municipal governments. That's the way our Constitution is determined. The federal government did make a one-time-only contribution under the police officers recruitment fund. There was $400 million over five years, but it was made very clear, all the participants understood, that that was initial funding over those five years for that purpose. At this time it is coming to an end.

Of course, the real issue is not simply funding police, but ensuring their work is effective. Their work is effective when the guys who are continually going through the revolving door of the justice system remain in prison. That has been the focus of our legislation: to ensure that those who deserve to be in prison remain in prison. We will continue in that respect. I believe we will see crime drop as a result of that, because the same old guys are committing the same crimes over and over again. As soon as they're back out on the street, they're committing crimes. The fact that they are no longer out on the street committing crimes has a tremendous impact on the crime rate.

So we would certainly appreciate your support for some of the other initiatives we're making in terms of mandatory minimum prison sentences for those who are involved in serious crime. That will help the police more than $400 million over five years.

Remember when the NDP said we had to put $19 billion of infrastructure in place to accommodate what Bill C-10 would do? Even my department estimated three years ago there would be 19,000 prisoners by this time, 2013, up from 14,000. I said no, that wouldn't happen. At present, we have about 15,000 prisoners, so it's up about 1,000. Essentially, we're not scooping up new people; we're just keeping the same old guys in prison so they don't get a holiday to go out and victimize more people. It's a very simple strategy.

10:30 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Kevin Sorenson

Thank you very much, Mr. Minister.

Unfortunately, we're out of time. We're over five minutes.

We'll now move to Mr. Leef, please. You have five minutes.