Public Safety Committee on March 19th, 2013

[Clayton Pecknold]

Thank you.

We've just completed a nine-month consultation and public engagement process where we went to British Columbians and asked them about policing generally. We've also, as I've mentioned, recently had the report of Mr. Oppal from the missing women's inquiry. I can tell you that the question of the sustainability and the cost of policing is foremost on many municipalities' minds.

We've heard very clearly from both the Federation of Canadian Municipalities and the Union of B.C. Municipalities that the cost of policing is a very significant burden on their communities. So I'd have to tell you that the cost of policing more globally is very much on everyone's mind and a challenge, both for municipalities and, indeed, for the Province of British Columbia.

I will say that I will be watching carefully to make sure from our perspective that the program is appropriately funded and that we have a voice as to the level of that funding as best we can. It's important from my perspective that the program be adequately funded and effectively and efficiently administered.

The cost of major investigations is a concern to municipalities. As a consequence, whether it's the cost of actually conducting the extraordinary investigative measures that are necessary or managing the file from a witness protection or witness management perspective, it will indeed be a concern for municipalities. As we look to adjust our program to the new bill, we'll be looking carefully as to how that might impact municipalities.

[Randall Garrison, NDP, Esquimalt—Juan de Fuca, BC]

If we were looking to see the cost to British Columbia for the witness protection program, is that cost borne under the RCMP contract or is there a separate line item in your provincial budget that funds the integrated program?

[Clayton Pecknold]

No, it's generally under what we call a provincial business line, so under our provincial policing budget.

We do have mechanisms and are working on mechanisms to have a more granular look at how those funds are spent. There are various mechanisms for us to look behind the billing of these files. We're doing some work on that. We're not where we should be, but we'd like to get a better understanding of all the costs associated with these major and complex files.

We do provide, through our provincial funding of the organized crime strategy, significant direct funding that benefits municipalities. We will be doing some work to get a better handle on it.

Without a doubt, I would be remiss if I did not tell you that the downstream costs of any major investigation, including witness protection, is something that municipalities are very aligned to, and indeed the province is aligned to.

[Randall Garrison, NDP, Esquimalt—Juan de Fuca, BC]

The costs to British Columbia might also show up in lines in municipal police budgets, where they would have to bear the costs of the ongoing witness protection. Have you had any look at those kinds of costs for municipalities? Has there been a report on that? We heard from the Canadian Association of Police Boards that there are concerns about those costs.

[Clayton Pecknold]

No, we haven't done that analysis, but we would certainly, as we move forward in adjusting our program....I think I heard Professor Dandurand speak a little bit about performance measures, I think they were. I'm sorry, but I couldn't quite hear all of his remarks. We very much want to get a better understanding of how well any program is operating, and how effectively and efficiently it's running, and how economically it's running.

While we haven't done that work so far, we would build that sort of evaluation measure into any changes to the program.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kevin Sorenson]

Thank you very much, Mr. Pecknold.

We'll go to Ms. Bergen.

It looks like Judge Major is just about ready to depart from us.

[Candice Bergen, Conservative, Portage—Lisgar, MB]

Don't go.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kevin Sorenson]

Just in case, we sure want to thank you for your testimony and for answering questions.

We'll go to Ms. Bergen.

[Candice Bergen, Conservative, Portage—Lisgar, MB]

Thank you very much.

Justice Major, I do have a question for you, so I hope you can stay a little bit longer, if possible.

I just want to start with Mr. Pecknold, though, regarding the discussion he just had with Mr. Garrison. I think you would agree with me, Mr. Pecknold, that you are talking about two separate issues.

First of all, the cost of policing is something that is front of mind for all of us. In fact, it was our Minister of Public Safety who initiated a conference and brought together leaders in January to discuss the cost of policing. As well, we realize that more investments are needed. That's why we just passed Bill C-42, with an additional $15 million to help support the RCMP and bring greater accountability. Unfortunately, it wasn't supported by everyone in the House.

I think what we want to talk about right now and what I think is important is Bill C-51, and the three major changes we are making to the witness protection program. First, it will actually help the provinces because it will create a more streamlined system whereby identity changes can be made. Second, it will expand the criteria, as recommended by Justice Major. Third, there will be greater protection for those who are under the program and those administering it.

I would think you would agree that there are no actual additional costs. The RCMP has testified to it. There will be no additional costs to municipalities from these changes in Bill C-51.

[Clayton Pecknold]

I can neither confirm nor deny for you that there would be any potential costs in a given investigation, in terms of witness management. Certainly, we have no analysis that tells us there will be, as a result of implementing this bill, immediate costs to municipalities—clearly not. What I was talking about, for clarity, was that in a given investigation where the responsibility for that investigation is a municipal responsibility, that latter bears the whole costs of that investigation, subject of course to whatever provincial support we can provide or whatever federal support might be there, either through this program or through other policing services.

[Candice Bergen, Conservative, Portage—Lisgar, MB]

Thank you very much. I just wanted to clarify that.

Justice Major, thank you so much for the recommendations you made. As you and previous witnesses noted, many of those recommendations have been complied with and taken up in Bill C-51.

You made that recommendation that we expand the program to take in people, whether via the Department of Defence, Public Safety, or the other applicants who can be brought forward. So can you please tell us why that recommendation was made in relation to Air India as well as other potential attacks?

[John Major]

No, I'm sorry. I can't tell you that. I could probably go back and review the report and jog my memory. I have to apologize for that vagueness, but I was only made aware of this invitation on Friday, so I haven't been able to come properly prepared. That's not much of an answer; it's an explanation.

The reason I can't stay much longer is that I have a long-standing medical appointment and I have to keep it. What I can volunteer, if it's of any value, is that I would be quite prepared to supply answers to the committee's written questions, for whatever benefit that might be.

[Candice Bergen, Conservative, Portage—Lisgar, MB]

Okay. Thank you very much. We really appreciate that.

Whenever Mr. Justice needs to leave, we will understand, Chair.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kevin Sorenson]

Yes, I certainly want you to keep that medical appointment.

I would welcome you to follow up on the question that Ms. Bergen asked or others asked about the expansion of the program into other departments, such as the defence department and CSIS. If you would like to supply that answer to our clerk or to our committee, we would circulate it and it would be as if it were given here today. We would appreciate that, Justice Major.

[John Major]

Could I ask first that I receive the question in a specific form so that I can give it my attention? I'm not sure that I can remember precisely what it is that you would like me to deal with, but perhaps your clerk could paraphrase the questions I've been asked, and I will respond.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kevin Sorenson]

We would appreciate that. He will forward that question to you, Justice Major.

Thank you very much.

You have two minutes, Ms. Bergen.

[Candice Bergen, Conservative, Portage—Lisgar, MB]

No, I have more than that, sir. I just started to ask questions.

Isn't it a seven-minute round? I didn't—

[The Chair, Conservative, Kevin Sorenson]

Go ahead, Ms. Bergen.

[Candice Bergen, Conservative, Portage—Lisgar, MB]

Mr. Pecknold—

[Denis Coderre, Liberal, Bourassa, QC]

On a point of order, what's not fair is that I don't get a question for Justice Major.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kevin Sorenson]

Go ahead.

[Candice Bergen, Conservative, Portage—Lisgar, MB]

Thank you.

Mr. Pecknold, can you tell us if you were consulted in regard to this legislation?

[Clayton Pecknold]

Yes. We were consulted through Public Safety Canada quite extensively...[Technical difficulty--Editor]

[The Chair, Conservative, Kevin Sorenson]

Go ahead, Ms. Bergen.

[Candice Bergen, Conservative, Portage—Lisgar, MB]

There you go. That last question took us a minute and a half.

Were you happy with the consultations?