Public Safety Committee on March 19th, 2013

[Clayton Pecknold]

We certainly felt that we were appropriately consulted, yes. Do I feel that we were satisfactorily and fully consulted on this bill? Yes, we were.

[Candice Bergen, Conservative, Portage—Lisgar, MB]

That's great. Thank you very much.

Those were my seven minutes.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kevin Sorenson]

All right. You left us a little early. We had a few more seconds.

Go ahead, Mr. Coderre.

[Denis Coderre, Liberal, Bourassa, QC]

Mr. Chair, I have my own clock, so we're okay. I can pass it to Madam Bergen.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kevin Sorenson]

That's perfect.

[Denis Coderre, Liberal, Bourassa, QC]

Mr. Chair, I feel that it is extremely relevant to have written questions to send to Justice Major. Given that there is a structural reality or a question of independence, I would ask the clerk to ask him the following question: Should the minister have extraordinary powers for extraordinary situations?

As a former Minister of Citizenship and Immigration, and having been one of the last to have had the security file before the agency was created, I think that is important in extraordinary situations for the minister to have certain powers. The minister must not depend on the system any more than the system must depend on him.

Given that we are talking about national security and anti-organized crime situations, and that Justice Major was perhaps thinking of the possibility of a representative from the Department of Justice to be able to make the move, I feel that, in terms of accountability, we should please add that question.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kevin Sorenson]

That will be forwarded.

[Denis Coderre, Liberal, Bourassa, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Mr. Pecknold, as I said to Mr. Dandurand earlier, we are talking about a very delicate situation here. We have to deal with witnesses, to confront organized crime and street gangs and so on. I represent a constituency that has street gangs, and I can tell you that the situation is not as you see it on TV or in the movies.

In your view, can the fact that Bill C-51 provides for an extension to municipal and provincial levels present a danger to some extent? The more information is being circulated, the greater the risk of leaks. There are moles everywhere, even inside departments and police forces.

How can we protect the information in order to make sure that witnesses are truly protected?

Could you give a practical answer to that question?

[Clayton Pecknold]

I think I would answer that and go back to the comments I made with respect to our increasing hours within the province of British Columbia and the increasing recognition of the need for standardized processes in policing, at least in this province. Whether it is dealing with investigative techniques, such as an undercover operation into major crime, or whether it's dealing with the use of appropriate electronic surveillance in a major crime, we are doing these under integrated systems in British Columbia that include federal, provincial, and local policing responsibilities.

We are in many ways working to raise the standard and the regulatory oversight of these processes, so that we are applying all of the right professional program principles. We would be doing the same thing with respect to implementing this bill and enhancing our existing program.

Our existing program is embedded with the RCMP. The appropriate safeguards are there under the existing program. We have a very robust accountability oversight system of policing in British Columbia. I do think, obviously, that when you build any of those, the need to know principle and the security around information is critical to effective investigations, effective management of witnesses, and protection of witnesses. It would be foremost on our mind as we develop the regulatory structure around the implementation program.

[Denis Coderre, Liberal, Bourassa, QC]

We often hear about the problems associated with informants. Getting access to informants is not the only question. There is also the question of how to handle them.

I am not only concerned about the need to find witnesses and have them participate in the program. Above all, I think we have to make sure that there is a way to protect their families subsequently.

We have our responsibilities, including the responsibility to protect the public. But, to the extent that we have decided to play the game until the final whistle, we also have to protect witnesses and their families.

Do you think an independent organization should manage that? The RCMP can handle a witness, but is it really equipped to handle everything else that entails?

[Clayton Pecknold]

I'm probably not qualified to speak to the operational aspects of day-to-day witness management. In fact, I don't have that level of knowledge.

However, I will say that in British Columbia, especially on files involving agents, our prosecution service is very much involved in decisions that affect the prosecution and the course of the prosecution. They work hand in hand with the policing community.

In terms of the oversight and the RCMP's ability to manage this program effectively, it has been our experience in British Columbia that they have done a good job of managing the program effectively through our integrated program. We have no reason to believe that it wouldn't change or be enhanced with this bill.

[Denis Coderre, Liberal, Bourassa, QC]

The problem is that witnesses come from a community: visible minority communities, First Nations communities, and so on. So I am concerned that those people and their families may have to leave their own situation and go and live somewhere else. That becomes a problem. We cannot put people anywhere in the country. There is the matter of religion too.

In practical terms, how do you see those people being moved?

[Clayton Pecknold]

You, and I'm sure other witnesses, have identified an important part. Canada at large, but British Columbia, in particular, is a very diverse society, especially in the Lower Mainland, where we are dealing with some specific gang challenges. We are talking about groups who may come from diverse communities. It's my hope and understanding, based on the conversations we have had with the senior police leadership of this province, that they are very alive to this challenge and that, as they develop this program further, they're going to be both culturally sensitive and culturally aware of the challenges of making sure that their protection programs meet the needs of the protectees and whatever diverse community they come from. In fact, Mr. Oppal's report clearly showed that we need to do a better job of protecting vulnerable persons in British Columbia and recognizing the diverse population we police. I can't tell you there won't be a challenge, but I can tell you that I'm alive to the issue.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kevin Sorenson]

Thank you very much, Mr. Pecknold.

We'll now move to Mr. Rousseau.

You have five minutes.

[Jean Rousseau, NDP, Compton—Stanstead, QC]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

Mr. Pecknold, I would like to continue along the same lines as the colleague who spoke before me.

Is enough training provided to those employees who have to look after the witness protection program?

In terms of the cultural and ethnic diversity that make up your demographic environment in British Columbia, we know that it has undergone more and more change in recent decades. Are there enough training programs and is there enough money to run them? How do you see the future in that regard?

[Clayton Pecknold]

As you know, the program is administered by the RCMP on our behalf in the province. I apologize, but I certainly don't have that level of understanding of what level of training the particular officers in this unit get. However, we have very clearly set as one of the priorities for our provincial police force in British Columbia to ensure that they are constantly assessing their need to be responsive to the diverse communities they police. I can tell you that I am very satisfied that our commanding officer and his senior staff are committed to doing that. It's my expectation that this would trickle down and be set as a standard within whatever program they are administering on our behalf, including the witness protection program. We'll be looking very carefully to move forward on this to make sure that the provincial priorities that we have set are well reflected in the policies and programs the RCMP are providing in British Columbia.

[Jean Rousseau, NDP, Compton—Stanstead, QC]

Thank you very much.

How much time do I have?

[The Chair, Conservative, Kevin Sorenson]

You have three minutes.

[Jean Rousseau, NDP, Compton—Stanstead, QC]

Okay.

You said previously that almost one third of the RCMP in Canada is in British Columbia and that they have provincial, municipal, federal and even border responsibilities all at the same time. Specifically on the witness protection program, how are things organized on the ground and what effect will this bill have on the way the programs are run?

[Clayton Pecknold]

The integrated witness protection program is situated within our RCMP division. It touches, as I understand it, federal and provincial and municipal policing responsibilities. I believe you had Assistant Commissioner Shean here, who would have more in-depth knowledge of the program.

By way of explanation, our combined forces special enforcement unit performs investigations that touch all three levels of government. They may touch a homicide that happened in a municipality, and they're going after province-wide provincial policing matters, but they're also involved in national tactical priorities, which bring in federal policing. That's the benefit of the integrated model; it touches all of those lines of responsibility.

[Jean Rousseau, NDP, Compton—Stanstead, QC]

Thank you very much.

I'll let Mr. Rafferty have the last question.

[John Rafferty, NDP, Thunder Bay—Rainy River, ON]

Thank you very much.

Mr. Pecknold, thank you for being here.

Does the integrated witness protection program include first nations police services?

[Clayton Pecknold]

I'm not aware of whether the composition includes anyone from first nations policing, but it would supply support to first nations policing services. We administer first nations police, so it would support that.

[John Rafferty, NDP, Thunder Bay—Rainy River, ON]

Right, and the province covers about 48% of first nations policing costs.

I wonder if you could briefly talk about first nations police services' funding and their ability to access the witness protection program, and perhaps comment about how or if they have done so in the past, and whether or not this bill will help them access the witness protection program.

[Clayton Pecknold]

Thank you. I can't speak to whether they have accessed it in the past or not, but there is nothing structurally that would prevent a matter arising under our first nations policing responsibility from obtaining the services of the witness protection program. The first nations policing program in British Columbia is delivered mostly through a series of tripartite agreements, as you may know, and there's a funding arrangement with the federal government. That program falls under my oversight and my responsibility to provide adequate and effective policing. If a particular incident occurs in a jurisdiction of first nations policing that needs that level of support, then I would expect this support to be provided.