Public Safety Committee on April 18th, 2013

[Commr Chris D. Lewis]

Obviously, if the federal government is going to influence any police department that way, it would be through the RCMP. Increased funding—for example, the federal government has funded the police officers recruitment fund for five years. That just ended but that was a great program. Funding like that, to increase civilianization, is always a possibility.

As I said, you just can't snap your fingers and always convert police to civilians. Sometimes you need to come up with the salary dollars somehow or other, and free them so you can create civilian positions. Sometimes it can be a swap out.

I can't see how the federal government could influence the OPP, for example, or municipal police departments in Ontario in a big way unless they were providing something to encourage that. Then hopefully that creates savings that go back to municipalities down the road.

[Francis Scarpaleggia, Liberal, Lac-Saint-Louis, QC]

Right. You said something in your remarks that I didn't quite catch. The way I understood it, it had to do with smaller police forces turning more and more to larger police forces. Then somehow, this leads to a gobbling up of the smaller forces by the larger forces down the line.

[Commr Chris D. Lewis]

There are two things there, sir. One is that smaller police departments don't have the resources or the internal expertise to do some things. We still have police departments with 10 to 12 officers so they don't have a tactical team or homicide investigators and some of those things. They traditionally turn to the OPP because we are funded, in part, to help them. We would do that at no cost.

But because they're afraid for their future and because some of them are afraid that if they call the OPP it's an admission that they can't do it themselves, they don't call us. They either go without that help or in some cases they've turned to a large department such as Toronto or Peel and asked for their help. Toronto or Peel would never let anyone down. I'm just picking them out of a hat. It could be Ottawa Police or whoever. But they have their own internal financial problems now, so they just can't send people to small communities to help with a homicide investigation.

It's created a fear of big brother, that being the OPP, and they're not going to get the help from their municipal colleagues in other departments, except in an emergency situation. So sometimes they're going without and that's not necessarily fair to the taxpayer nor the right thing to do in terms of officer and public safety.

[Francis Scarpaleggia, Liberal, Lac-Saint-Louis, QC]

That's interesting.

In terms of first nations, you suggested there's not enough money for first nations' policing. Then you also said it's really a local infrastructure problem. As you say, it's hard to retain officers in an area that has very little in the way of community infrastructure.

I remember many years ago I visited a community in northern Quebec on James Bay, called Chisasibi. Yes, it was far from the big southern cities and so on, but they had an arena. They played broomball with the local Cree and so on. I guess that's what you're getting at. If you can build a little community, it will be easier to retain the officers, and that would probably lead to savings.

Is it a question of building community infrastructure in first nations or is it a question of more money for police operations, or a little of both?

[Commr Chris D. Lewis]

It's both. Other issues in first nation communities impact on the police, such as a total lack of social service agencies, so the police end up having to do everything. They're really the only social service agency in Pikangikum for the most part.

Because of budget cuts some of those social service agencies are non-existent or diminished so the police end up picking up the slack in dealing with things they normally wouldn't have to deal with. So do you invest in more $50,000 to $60,000-a-year social service people in different programs or do you invest in police who respond, lock people up, prosecute them, and incarcerate them? The expense on that end is bigger. If you can do things that prevent, that saves victimization and it saves—

[Francis Scarpaleggia, Liberal, Lac-Saint-Louis, QC]

You're saying it has to be a coordinated response.

[Commr Chris D. Lewis]

It does. All these agencies work together in most communities, but in first nation communities most are non-existent.

[Francis Scarpaleggia, Liberal, Lac-Saint-Louis, QC]

How much more time?

[The Chair, Conservative, Kevin Sorenson]

You have 30 seconds.

[Francis Scarpaleggia, Liberal, Lac-Saint-Louis, QC]

I have 30 seconds. I'm so used to your shutting me down. No, you're very fair. I do mean that.

In terms of privatizing certain services, would that include IT services and so on? Would you be in favour of privatizing the firearms registry, because there's a motion on the floor of the House calling on the government, I believe, to privatize the registry of restricted firearms. Would that save the OPP money? Would that be useful?

[Commr Chris D. Lewis]

It may. We have a lot of civilian personnel who work in that area for us. There are not all that many uniformed people. I don't know if there really would be a savings there or not. I've never done the analysis of that.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kevin Sorenson]

Thank you very much.

We'll move to the second round of questioning. These are five-minute rounds.

Mr. Garrison.

[Randall Garrison, NDP, Esquimalt—Juan de Fuca, BC]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

Thank you, Commissioner, for being here. I know you have a large police force to run.

[Commr Chris D. Lewis]

It's my pleasure.

[Randall Garrison, NDP, Esquimalt—Juan de Fuca, BC]

It's a constant that we're hearing now from witnesses in policing that the current model is not sustainable. I'm interested in your committee on the future of policing, and the focus of that committee. From the titles you've given me of the subcommittees, it seems largely focused on cost reduction.

Can you say a bit more about the focus of the work of that committee?

[Commr Chris D. Lewis]

The committee has police associations and police leaders on it. The OPP are involved in all the subcommittees, as well as ministry employees, managers, and a number of other advisors who are really looking at four different areas, which are law enforcement and victims' assistance, crime prevention, emergency response and public order, and administration and infrastructure. They're looking at ways that business could be delivered potentially as efficiently or more efficiently, and financially, looking at a model that will ultimately save dollars. That's what it's all about.

But at the same time, it's not just about saving money. It's about delivering the services that the taxpayers need and deserve, and whether the model by which that is done is proper. There's a lot of discussion in Ontario about the Quebec model, because Quebec has a policing model that is unique in Canada. They have virtually legislated small police departments away. It's tough to say goodbye to a small police department in a municipality that has been there forever. The officers still have employment; they just wear a different uniform.

That's one of the things that this future of policing committee has been discussing to some degree, whether there is legislative change needed in Ontario. I think there is. Unfortunately, the 10-officer departments cannot keep up, cannot afford to have a chief, their own radio room, their own dispatchers, their own building. A larger police department could absorb them and deliver the services more effectively, using the great officers who are there. It's not a slam to them. It's just an inefficient model.

It's all about effective, efficient, sustainable police service delivery. That's the mandate of that committee.

[Randall Garrison, NDP, Esquimalt—Juan de Fuca, BC]

You talked about the changing ratio of sworn officers to civilians, and you gave as an example the OPP ratio of something like 10:1, and now it's about 2:1—sworn officers to civilians.

[Commr Chris D. Lewis]

Exactly.

[Randall Garrison, NDP, Esquimalt—Juan de Fuca, BC]

Can you give us a similar picture of the use of special constables? I don't think we've heard any numbers. You talked about auxiliaries, but special constables....

[Commr Chris D. Lewis]

I'm not sure what our exact number of special constables is. I know there are at least a couple of hundred special constables. There was a time years ago when there was a handful. That number has increased exponentially as well.

[Randall Garrison, NDP, Esquimalt—Juan de Fuca, BC]

When you talk about trying to find savings by civilianization, I would say if you look at that ratio it would look as if there's not much room left, when you've already gone from a ratio of 10:1 to 2:1. Maybe you've found all your savings in civilianization that you might be able to find.

[Commr Chris D. Lewis]

Yes, I think that happened not so much because we were really looking specifically to do it. It morphed into that in a natural way. What we have to do now is to look at whether we can do more expansion of that, and we are. We're even looking at manager positions. Does this person in human resources need to wear a uniform and carry a gun, or is this a human resources expert who we can hire right out of university or from some government agency?

There is more to come. I don't think it will be significant. We're not going to go, for example, to half and half, but we can increase the numbers and potentially save money—and be as efficient or more efficient by having the right people doing the work.

[Randall Garrison, NDP, Esquimalt—Juan de Fuca, BC]

We heard some very interesting testimony coming out of Prince Albert about a model they call HUB and COR. Of course, the police chief there is now the deputy minister of policing in Saskatchewan. Their focus has been on reducing demand. I just wonder whether your future of policing committee is looking at those issues of reducing demand for police services.

[Commr Chris D. Lewis]

For sure, and that's really around the prevention piece. Every domestic assault that can be prevented saves some woman from being victimized. Every crime that can be prevented prevents some elderly person from losing their life savings or someone from being victimized or brutalized in some way. That's the main goal. It saves money because prevention is cheaper than investigation, response, and putting people through the courts and incarcerating them. So let's try to prevent the crime so you're not responding hither and yon.

Crime has dropped in Canada, but it's because of the prevention efforts. Some communities say that because crime has dropped, you don't need as many police officers. But it has dropped for a reason. It's because they've put efforts into prevention. They can't stop doing that or crime will increase again.

[Randall Garrison, NDP, Esquimalt—Juan de Fuca, BC]

Thank you.