Evidence of meeting #80 for Public Safety and National Security in the 41st Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site.) The winning word was opp.
A recording is available from Parliament.
9:30 a.m.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Kevin Sorenson
Thanks very much, Commissioner.
We'll move to Mr. Hawn, please, for five minutes.
9:30 a.m.
Conservative
Laurie Hawn Conservative Edmonton Centre, AB
Thank you, Commissioner, for being here.
Through the chair to you, I want to pick up on a couple of things that you talked about, and they were starting to be alluded to here as well. You mentioned the need for legislative change, and you mentioned a little bit about provincial. Can you expand on that a little bit and be a little more specific? Are there federal legislative changes that you think are necessary?
9:30 a.m.
Commissioner, Ontario Provincial Police
Provincially, it's all around the policing model and structure and service delivery model. In Ontario, there are 53 police services, plus the OPP. I think at some point that will be down to maybe 20, and the OPP. It's larger departments with more economies of scale.
On the federal level, I'm not going to speak on behalf of the Commissioner of the RCMP, but I think federally there have been a lot of good things coming out of the federal government in terms of legislative change and things that help us do our jobs better, which potentially saves money. There are things like the police officer recruitment fund that puts a lot of police into communities. There may be better ways for the federal government, if it wants to make investments to fight crime, terrorism, organized crime, and those things, to give police services across Canada money to help fight that, so they can keep their officers on the road doing the prevention and response activities they do now, but potentially get help with cybercrime and some of those things.
It may be a case of some legislation around who does what. Maybe the RCMP should be the lead on all cybercrime in Canada. I just picked that out of a hat. They're very involved with organized crime, as we all are. We work very cooperatively together. But sometimes for something that's federal in nature, the RCMP may not necessarily have the resources to take that on, so it ends up being done piecemeal from province to province. There may be some things that way, but I really haven't thought about the whole federal picture a whole lot, to be honest.
9:30 a.m.
Conservative
Laurie Hawn Conservative Edmonton Centre, AB
That leads into my next question. You talked about the need to do some amalgamation, and there are going to be some tough decisions that will have to be made. There may be some bruised egos, and so on. On a practical side of this question, and a philosophical side, Dale McFee, whom Mr. Garrison referred to as the assistant deputy minister in Saskatchewan now—
9:30 a.m.
Conservative
Laurie Hawn Conservative Edmonton Centre, AB
—coined a phrase that I hadn't heard before, that this is about leadership, not ownership.
9:30 a.m.
Conservative
Laurie Hawn Conservative Edmonton Centre, AB
You have to break down some of that ownership that people naturally have. How tough is that going to be?
On the practical side, would that allow an overall reduction in the numbers of people due to the amalgamation of back ends, and so on?
9:35 a.m.
Commissioner, Ontario Provincial Police
Yes, that would result in an overall reduction in numbers. For example, we just took over the Perth Police Service two weekends ago. Thirteen officers and one civilian came over. The chief chose to retire and move on. We didn't need the chief. As far as the radio room that they had was concerned, unfortunately, those civilians lost their jobs because we have a radio room here and we can handle the calls that they would normally have with that one part-time person. That is not a slam at a police department or the personnel at all, but we offer economies of scale. We have a training officer, so we didn't need one. We have it internally—whatever—so we can absorb and absorb. Sometimes we have to add extra people, but we get that money back from the municipalities through contract policing agreements. There's way more efficiency there.
In Ontario, we once had 170 or 180 police departments, years ago, so over time that has happened, but it's been painful. I understand the dilemma the police leaders, who have the potential of losing their departments, have, as well as the elected officials. But Dale McFee's point is that we have to lead these communities through this change. It's inevitable. So to keep fighting it and fighting it and fighting it—and I can sympathize with their positions—isn't necessarily leadership. Leadership should be doing the best for the community we serve. And what is that?
9:35 a.m.
Conservative
Laurie Hawn Conservative Edmonton Centre, AB
For those of us who are old enough to remember, the days of Mayberry and Andy Griffith are gone.
9:35 a.m.
Commissioner, Ontario Provincial Police
Pretty well. We give more than one bullet to our deputies now, yes.
9:35 a.m.
Some hon. members
Oh, oh!
9:35 a.m.
Conservative
Laurie Hawn Conservative Edmonton Centre, AB
I'm glad to hear that.
I have a specific question that's in the area of data input, and I think the OPP does something in this area that might be a model for other forces. You have a system now of not having the police officer sit there and punch it in.
9:35 a.m.
Commissioner, Ontario Provincial Police
We have a mixed system. We still have detachments where officers are doing it. We have another 100 civilian personnel who are being hired, as we speak, to do more of that. It's in dribs and drabs, depending on the contract with the municipality. If they want to pay to have civilians do it, which we welcome with open arms, that's what happens. But years ago, organizationally, long before I had any decision-making ability, we decided to go with officer-entry, not civilian. In hindsight, that wasn't a good decision. We should have gone with civilian data entry at the time. Now we're paying officers, and maybe inefficiently depending on their skills, to enter data and enter reports. It doesn't make sense.
9:35 a.m.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Kevin Sorenson
Thank you very much, Commissioner.
Thank you, Mr. Hawn.
We'll move back to Madame Michaud.
9:35 a.m.
NDP
Élaine Michaud NDP Portneuf—Jacques-Cartier, QC
Thank you very much, Mr. Lewis. Thank you for your presentation.
I am just finding out about your special constables program. I understand the reasoning behind the use of this type of constable. However, I have a few questions about the initial training they are provided on hiring, and about the ongoing training these constables may get in the course of their duties.
Their work can be dangerous work. You never know what might happen, even when they are put in situations that do not appear dangerous at first. I would like to have a bit more information on that.
9:35 a.m.
Commissioner, Ontario Provincial Police
Yes, and that's a very good question. They receive a week's training at the front end of their employment in some aspects of the use of force and some kind of personal safety protection. They receive training on how to safely handle prisoners, how to frisk them, how to secure them, how to put them in vehicles in a safe way, and how to use the equipment that they use to do that. They receive training in first aid.
They receive some training in telecommunications, so that they know how to use the radios that they have and some stuff about policy and their authorities, and what they can and cannot do. Then they receive regular training.
As time goes on, things change. We identify weaknesses in training or policy changes we have to make. They have to be trained up to speed on that, so there's annual training for them.
9:35 a.m.
NDP
Élaine Michaud NDP Portneuf—Jacques-Cartier, QC
Is that annual training mandatory or just on an as-needed basis?
9:35 a.m.
Commissioner, Ontario Provincial Police
No, it's mandatory. We have to train regularly, so it becomes very instinctive how we do things. There's a full week of mandatory training for police officers every year—40 hours in the legislation—and reminders, requalification of firearms, and what not. That's to a much lesser degree for the special constables because their scope is much different in terms of what they do, but they do receive annual training.
Then there are other things that might come up that are communicated to them, such as changes and procedural policy, and they'll just get communications on that through emails or briefings.
9:40 a.m.
NDP
Élaine Michaud NDP Portneuf—Jacques-Cartier, QC
If a special constable is unfortunately injured on duty, what type of assistance can be expected from your organization? What type of support is provided when a special constable gets injured?
9:40 a.m.
Commissioner, Ontario Provincial Police
They receive the same support that our uniformed officers would receive. They're covered by WSIB in Ontario. It's the former workers' compensation, for lack of a better term. They receive any counselling they may need from a psychological perspective. If someone goes through something significantly traumatic, they receive all the same supports that our normal uniformed officers would receive.
9:40 a.m.
NDP
Élaine Michaud NDP Portneuf—Jacques-Cartier, QC
Thank you very much.
A bit earlier, when another topic was under discussion, you mentioned that the Police Officer Recruitment Fund had been very useful to you in your operations over the past five years. That fund was unfortunately discontinued, which undermines the effectiveness and the work of some police forces. Among others, in Montreal and elsewhere in Quebec, this fund was used to set up joint squads to fight street gangs.
In Ontario, do you use the fund in the same way?
9:40 a.m.
Commissioner, Ontario Provincial Police
In Ontario, it was left to a committee of the chiefs of police to work with government to sort out who would get how many positions. Ontario got so many positions from what we call PORF. The OPP ended up with 125 of them due to some shortfalls that we already had. They were all put into front-line policing positions. The Ontario government has funded the specialty gang positions and organized crime positions for a number of years for us. It was at the front line in communities that we needed the bodies.
Toronto police got a certain number. Other departments got a reduced number depending on their size. Forty of the positions in Ontario went to first nations' policing. That was significant for them because they had such a need. Of course, they've lost those 40 positions now, so that puts more pressure on us to help them.
9:40 a.m.
NDP
Élaine Michaud NDP Portneuf—Jacques-Cartier, QC
That's right.
You referred to new ways of helping your organization, and that type of fund is very important, because it enables you to get the human resources you need in the places you really need them. That is my understanding.