Public Safety Committee on April 25th, 2013

[Élaine Michaud, NDP, Portneuf—Jacques-Cartier, QC]

And that was eliminated in its entirety.

What are the direct repercussions of that cutback on the program?

[Tammy Thompson]

The START program doesn't take a lot of money to run, quite frankly, and the loss of that amount of money really could mean the loss of the program in the long run.

[Élaine Michaud, NDP, Portneuf—Jacques-Cartier, QC]

Can you quantify the cut to the program?

[Tammy Thompson]

The Skills Link portion that we were provided with annually was $20,000, and that's just for START. Across the board, for all of the other programs that have been modelled after us in Manitoba, it would come out to $37,000.

[Élaine Michaud, NDP, Portneuf—Jacques-Cartier, QC]

And what is the START program's operating budget, exactly?

[Tammy Thompson]

Each one of the models differs slightly, but, for instance, START—and our program is the largest—costs about $70,000 to run, cash in hand, and then in kind there's about another $20,000 that is added.

[Élaine Michaud, NDP, Portneuf—Jacques-Cartier, QC]

Thank you for that information.

Can you tell us a bit more about the role of the RCMP in the program? What are its specific responsibilities, and what role does it play in the program?

[Tammy Thompson]

The RCMP are part of our steering committee. They share an equal spot on our board that determines how our program runs and how that goes ahead. I'm housed within the detachment, but I'm not a detachment employee. It's kind of a symbiotic relationship. They help me and I help them, all in the name of helping the clients we work with.

I'm able to assist them when they're dealing with my clients and they don't have a full picture of the information, and they're able to assist me when I have things that come up with my clients.

[Élaine Michaud, NDP, Portneuf—Jacques-Cartier, QC]

In reading the documents you provided, I noted that the members of the RCMP who had taken part in the program had seen that there were direct benefits, and that some of these were due to their participation in the program.

[Tammy Thompson]

Yes, we have wonderful support from the RCMP.

I really can't put it any other way. We both realize that we assist each other. They're very supportive of us, not only financially but also in concept. They've been willing to go to bat for us. It's a program that once you see it running and see what's happening, and see the effect within the community, it's really hard not to want to do the most you can for it. We are not a large city, and we're operating in four smaller communities.

You walk down the street and you do see the differences. You see this kid who you always saw intoxicated or stoned on a street corner, and all of a sudden he's headed to school with his backpack. It really is an impact for us and we see that. Because of that, we're all extremely passionate about this program.

[Élaine Michaud, NDP, Portneuf—Jacques-Cartier, QC]

Our previous witnesses told us that it was extremely difficult to reduce the demand for police services that is being felt everywhere, and that this really puts enormous pressure on their operations.

In light of this, a program like yours is an excellent way of ensuring better cost management within police forces. It would prevent certain calls and reduce the demand for services.

[Tammy Thompson]

I would have to agree.

I've certainly had that expressed to me from members I work with within our detachment. They have seen a reduction in what they have to do. As I've said, we've compared those stats. We pulled the files on the clients we work with, made that mark when they were referred to the program, and are able to see that there are far fewer calls for service than previously.

[Élaine Michaud, NDP, Portneuf—Jacques-Cartier, QC]

Thank you very much.

I would like to hear the comments of Minister Tell on that last statement, that such programs, somewhat like the HUB and COR models, allow for better cost management by reducing the demand for service.

[Christine Tell]

Yes, of course.

We're seeing those reductions in particular in Prince Albert. Prince Albert has a population of approximately 40,000 people, and, as Dale has said earlier, there's definitely a reduction in the calls for service and the reported crimes.

We have to be aware, though, and it's something I want to keep the committee aware of, that we police and put police officers in various communities based on population. I'm sure it's the same throughout Canada. Whether it will, over time, reduce the requirement for the number of police officers, I don't know. However, we'll definitely see a change in the engagement of police throughout the country, throughout our communities and our province. But they'll still be engaged and will still be required to police to a certain level.

[Élaine Michaud, NDP, Portneuf—Jacques-Cartier, QC]

Certainly.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kevin Sorenson]

Thank you.

You have five seconds, so you're out.

Thank you very much.

We'll go to Mr. Leef, please.

[Ryan Leef, Conservative, Yukon, YT]

Thank you, Mr. Chair, and thank you to all our witnesses.

My first questions will be for Minister Tell.

Minister, I'm the member of Parliament for Yukon. We have an experience in the territory where the RCMP and Corrections work closely together for cellblock services and our correctional centre deals with all cellblock services.

Does that occur in the province of Saskatchewan or in the PA area? If so, what has been your experience?

From our perspective, there's a different degree of care that we're able to provide out of the correctional centre—separate from the actual centre itself, but a different level of care. Policing has difficulty in particular providing cellblock services for folks with mental health disabilities.

Can you give us your perspective on that?

[Christine Tell]

I'm going to turn it over to Dale. There are some nuances here. We definitely have some involvement with the RCMP with our correctional facilities.

I'll leave it with Dale here for a minute.

[Dale McFee]

It's a great question.

We do not have the integration that you guys have. We are looking at the entire system, including the transport of prisoners. There is a whole mechanism there around safety. It's obviously an area of high risk; I am sure we are all aware. One lawsuit costs millions, and it's all about the care of the individual or the client. It's something we are currently reviewing, including now that we have merged our adult and YO as one part of the ministry. It gives us a whole bunch more opportunities. What we really have is undercrowding in YO and overcrowding in adult, so we want to look at a facility's master plan to maximize this.

With that also comes prisoner transport, but it also looks at the handling and the overnight operations we do. A lot of police agencies have moved health people right into their cellblock, obviously to mitigate that risk, because a lot of these folks, upwards of 80% to 95%, have addictions issues. Obviously when you throw in addictions...it's about 30% mental health.

There are some real opportunities here, but it's a paradigm shift in thinking, just like everything else. It's a new way of approaching it, and it's really important for us that we're doing it based on evidence and focused on outcomes. That's why we're letting some of the experts in academia play a role in helping us flesh this out.

[Ryan Leef, Conservative, Yukon, YT]

Thank you for that.

For the folks from START, that was a good segue with regard to results-based decision-making. Of course, we are studying the economics of policing, and I think everybody on the committee is starting to hear a lot more that the early start, multi-agency, complete wraparound and client-centred services are the ones that are going to deliver the long-term best results for reduction of costs and reduction of crime rates. You certainly indicated you are very passionate about that program.

On the evidence-based front, have you compared your program to other programs? How does it stack up? If our agreement is to be client centred and the outcome is what's best for the client, then programs may come and go, and we have to be willing to let them go if they're not evidence-based to be the best ones.

Do you know of others comparing their programs to yours? Is there a willingness among the proponents and people who do great work on these programs to ebb and flow in and out of each other's programs, or to support one over the other? Does that occur?

Sometimes we see a competitive program environment. I certainly see that, if one wants to keep a program alive. We have that best picture in mind of client service, but we still want to keep our programs alive. So how do you operate with other programs with regard to comparing and contrasting what you do with them?

[Tammy Thompson]

Our evaluation does compare us to other wraparound programs in America, and we really held up very well against them.

In comparison to other programs we may be competing with in our area, there really aren't any because we fill the gap. The whole reason START was created 11 years ago was that kids were falling through the cracks, and every agency saw that and knew we had to do something different. One of the things I always say about START is that we belong to everybody and nobody all at the same time. We were created to fill those gaps, and everybody focuses their attention on START. If an issue comes up in the community, our steering committee has all the heads of the community agencies on it. We bring it to that forum, and we discuss how we can change that. That's similar to the Hub and COR model as well.

[Ryan Leef, Conservative, Yukon, YT]

There isn't a lot of duplication going on.

[Tammy Thompson]

No, not at all.

[Ryan Leef, Conservative, Yukon, YT]

I don't think I have a lot of time. I am quickly going to ask about your experience with regard to your working right in the detachment. What has your experience been with information sharing and privacy issues?

[Tammy Thompson]

It's been very good. There are definitely boundaries around it, because the RCMP has a lot of confidential information; you work within the appropriate boundaries. We've never had an issue with that. In our 11 years of doing business inside or outside the detachment, we've never had a complaint about sharing information incorrectly.