Public Safety Committee on April 25th, 2013

[Ryan Leef, Conservative, Yukon, YT]

Do you have any recommendations for the committee on legislative or operational decisions that could enhance those kinds of relationships for full wraparound services? You don't seem to experience any privacy issues, but are there any other operational or administrative issues that would be helpful for us to support that work?

[Tammy Thompson]

I think definitely having a top-down approach.... I feel like at START we are working from the bottom up. We are selling the program, and at least within our province we are trying to engage people—and we have been able to; we've been successful in that.

One of the things we do find is that because it isn't mandated at a higher level, you can have people from agencies who say they don't really believe in the model, so they don't want to participate in it. That creates a really big hole, basically, in trying to get things done.

I think that's a great advantage Saskatchewan has in how they're doing things. That would be fantastic for us. It's that, and the funding piece. For all the time that we spend looking and searching for funding, that's time away from doing the work with these youths, and that's really hard, especially when you're dedicated to what you do and you know you're making a difference. To take any time away from that for this purpose is hard.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kevin Sorenson]

Thank you very much.

We'll move to the end of the first round here with Mr. Scarpaleggia, please.

[Francis Scarpaleggia, Liberal, Lac-Saint-Louis, QC]

Thank you very much.

I'm just curious. You had federal funding and it was under Skills Link. Could you just remind me what that funding was for? What kinds of activities did it fund, really?

[Tammy Thompson]

The client case management process, is how they termed it.

[Francis Scarpaleggia, Liberal, Lac-Saint-Louis, QC]

I see. So now there's no federal funding.

[Tammy Thompson]

No.

[Francis Scarpaleggia, Liberal, Lac-Saint-Louis, QC]

I've heard you say that one of the things that would be helpful for your program would be for agencies within Manitoba to mandate that they have to work with you. What can the federal government do to sustain you and encourage the replication of your model across your province and elsewhere in Canada? What can the federal government do?

It's a very interesting model. In fact, I think it mirrors what the Calgary police chief, Chief Hanson, talked about just the other day here. It's the same thing: kids are out of school, they have a bullying problem—they're the bully—or they may have a substance abuse problem. The services come together. They're back in school, and they're excelling in school. It's really almost a mirror image of what Chief Hanson was talking about.

What can the federal government do to help replicate or sustain even what exists, to help sustain this kind of approach across Canada?

[Tammy Thompson]

Besides the funding piece, which is big, I think we're looking at the support of the concept. I hear that. Obviously, there are other agencies that are practising much in the same way we are, that are selling this model as well as we are, but I think the acceptance of it is huge.

[Francis Scarpaleggia, Liberal, Lac-Saint-Louis, QC]

A federal stamp of approval would be good.

[Tammy Thompson]

Yes, I think that would be really big. I think it would help people in communities move towards working in that direction.

[Francis Scarpaleggia, Liberal, Lac-Saint-Louis, QC]

Right.

Minister Tell, you mentioned I think at the beginning of your presentation that what's happening with the program in Prince Albert is just great, but the foundations are fragile. Am I quoting you properly? You said something about foundations being fragile—unless it was Ms. Thompson, but I think it was you, Minister.

[Christine Tell]

No, on the foundations, I don't know what part.... The foundations of what's going on in Prince Albert have indeed been replicated across the province. It's a formalized structure, community driven, with community priorities. The centre of excellence, or the COR, as it's referred to here, supports the innovative techniques, all of that type of research, based on evidence to ensure that our communities are getting what they specifically need. The structures are solid. Once they're formed—as I said, it's community driven—all agencies are in the game and part of this.

No, it's pretty solid. They're built in each community to replicate, depending on the needs of each individual community. It's designed. It's like a franchise and it's pretty solid.

[Francis Scarpaleggia, Liberal, Lac-Saint-Louis, QC]

Deputy Minister McFee, when he appeared, referred to it as a franchising model.

You seem to have created something in Saskatchewan, a kind of mechanism for sharing best practices, research, coordinating communities across Saskatchewan, to be aware of the best ways to approach public security issues, policing and so on.

Do we need that at the federal level as well? Would that not be replicating what you're doing provincially?

[Christine Tell]

Dale will respond to that one for you.

[Dale McFee]

It's a very good point.

When you look at the things we experienced going through this, getting it up and running—for over two years now—as I said earlier, it was the balance piece. The role of the federal government is actually very similar to that of the provincial government. We have championship. We have the premier. I think there's a role for championship at the federal government. We have a formalized structure. I think there's a role for the federal government in part of that structure. It's all based on evidence-based practices. That's stuff the NCPC could be supporting and playing a part in. It basically focuses on process, including the barriers to privacy.

One of the gentlemen asked a question on privacy. That was one of our biggest barriers. We did a lot of work on that privacy assessment. When acute elevated risks exist for individuals and families, it should be the norm that we're asking what we can do to help, rather than waiting for them to be in the system and hiding behind the fact that we don't share information. I think there is a real role the federal government can play in relation to that legislative piece.

Everybody respects privacy. I haven't seen that...not ever. But there are times when privacy becomes a barrier. I do not think privacy legislation was designed for when we have acute elevated risk for individuals and their families.

Again, the thing about where the federal government plays.... Some of the money, as mentioned, is through the Manitoba program. But this isn't a lot of money. In this whole thing these concepts are designed so that if everybody has a little piece, it's affordable. Then you tie it back into the whole policing concept: 75% of the work is not criminal in nature, 25% is criminal, and 5% lead to criminal charges.

If you take a lot of this stuff out of the system, in essence you free up time at the back end or downstream, so you can focus on the other stuff, such as organized crime, and maintain the balance. It's not one or the other. It's a reinvestment of resources into what you're actually trying to accomplish.

[Francis Scarpaleggia, Liberal, Lac-Saint-Louis, QC]

So you say one—

[The Chair, Conservative, Kevin Sorenson]

Thanks, Mr. Scarpaleggia. You're over time.

We'll move to Mr. Harris, please.

Welcome to the committee.

[Jack Harris, NDP, St. John's East, NL]

Thank you, Mr. Sorenson. I appreciate the opportunity to ask a few questions.

I want to thank both groups of witnesses. You've demonstrated through your evidence that both in Saskatchewan and in Manitoba, particularly with a rural focus, much can be done. I guess I'll call them preliminary results, because if you're getting results like that after one or two years, it seems to me that you're on to something.

I particularly like Minister Tell's association of the issues of literacy, mental and physical health, and community supports, as a way to keep people from the justice system.

First of all, I noticed that in Selkirk, looking at your statistics here, that about half of your clientele were from the aboriginal community. I looked quickly and saw that the population of the Selkirk area is about 25% aboriginal, so you have a high representation. With the statistics you're receiving, it seems very positive, particularly when we look at the disturbing number of incarcerated aboriginal people, in western Canada, in particular, compared with the population.

Is this a model that might help to alleviate that? Do you see that as one of your outcomes from this kind of programming, that we can ensure there are better opportunities for aboriginal young people in particular to participate better in the community and in society?

This is directed to Mr. Tielman.

[Walter Tielman]

Yes, absolutely.

Preventative services are always beneficial and will prevent people from being incarcerated unnecessarily. If it's the aboriginal person we're working with, the wraparound program takes their needs into account when we serve them. Absolutely.

[Jack Harris, NDP, St. John's East, NL]

The one figure I heard from you in terms of cost was a $21,000 figure. Was that for the provincial contribution to this program?

[Walter Tielman]

Yes, it's provincial. It used to be the Department of Justice; it's now Children and Youth Opportunities. There's been a switch of departments.

[Jack Harris, NDP, St. John's East, NL]

We're talking about policing costs. I know that the cost of one RCMP officer is probably at least three times that cost, perhaps more than that.

Is it possible that there could be a direct relationship between the kind of programming you are talking about here and that Minister Tell is talking about in Saskatchewan, with the money—money isn't the only issue, of course, but the investment—that's put into these types of programs and the actual results in crime reduction and in service requirements reduction, so that policing costs can actually be lowered?

[Walter Tielman]

In my opinion, yes, absolutely, and the police would be allowed to focus on the more criminally oriented individuals in the community.

[Jack Harris, NDP, St. John's East, NL]

Mr. McFee, the percentage of time police officers are spending on non-criminal matters seems startlingly high, but not surprising, I suppose.

Is that something, Mr. McFee or Minister Tell, that you look at as well as a potential cost reduction? I know you talked about it in terms of focusing on the more serious criminal activities. But with crime rates going down generally across the country, would you be able to look forward to an actual reduction in policing costs?