Public Safety Committee on June 6th, 2013

[Chief Doug Palson]

We operate under a police commission and most of my colleagues across the country have similar arrangements. It's written right into the policing agreements, and our commission consists of a representative from each community that we police.

Also in conjunction with that, we encourage each community to have a local police board or committee. It's to varying degrees of success and that's exactly what those committees are about. Ideally I encourage and help the communities, encourage them to select people from those communities, from the different programs within the community. Like I said, it's working with varying degrees of success. We have one community where it's working very well. I hear stuff...a lot of things don't get to my desk, and that's the way it should be. They're handled right at the community level between the corporal and their committee.

[The Vice-Chair, NDP, Randall Garrison]

I'll have to stop you there. We're going to turn to Mr. Scarpaleggia, for seven minutes.

[Francis Scarpaleggia, Liberal, Lac-Saint-Louis, QC]

Yes, thank you, Chair.

Just to follow up on your last comments, you mentioned a committee. Is it a kind of coordinating committee? Could you elaborate on this committee that you mentioned in response to Mr. Norlock's question?

[Chief Doug Palson]

We call them local police boards. Some communities like to call them committees. Let them call it whatever they feel comfortable with. It's a group of people from the community who meet monthly, usually, and discuss community issues in relation to safety and health in the community, basically.

[Francis Scarpaleggia, Liberal, Lac-Saint-Louis, QC]

But they wouldn't get involved in specific cases, as they do, for example, in Prince Albert and Calgary. Are you familiar with their hub and spoke model? They'll bring in people from social services, education, the police force, whatever, and they'll look at each case and decide that a multi-faceted intervention, a coordinated intervention is required. For example, they may send a social worker to a home and someone from the school board to a home to get one of the kids back in school.

You don't have that kind of model for operating in a first nation community, I guess.

[Chief Doug Palson]

I'm very familiar with that model. It's a good model. I think everyone will evolve and sort of move towards some version of that.

Right now, no, the local committee is not at that level, the one I'm thinking of, but some of the pieces of that puzzle are at that table. There are unique challenges in those close-knit, family-oriented first nation communities. It's going to be a while before such a model can be massaged into those communities, I think, because there are also those entities, whether it's probation....

Probation is a good example. I notice in my world it's often very much in flux. A lot of times it's vacant, and there is a lot of transition for people there. In some communities, with the education there are varying degrees of stability.

Those are key pieces of that hub.

[Francis Scarpaleggia, Liberal, Lac-Saint-Louis, QC]

Right.

[Chief Doug Palson]

If they're not there, and solid, it's very difficult to make that work.

[Francis Scarpaleggia, Liberal, Lac-Saint-Louis, QC]

Yes. So you're saying that a lot of the players who would be around the table may not be available, either because of perhaps distance—they may be located far away—or there is simply a vacancy in that area that needs to be filled, a social worker vacancy or a teacher vacancy or what have you.

That's the particular challenge in adopting the hub and spoke model in some of these communities, I guess.

[Chief Doug Palson]

Yes. There's a capacity piece to it, and also the political will.

[Francis Scarpaleggia, Liberal, Lac-Saint-Louis, QC]

The political will in the community, or...?

[Chief Doug Palson]

The politics in first nation communities can be very raw at times; that's in flux too, and ever-changing. To have a well-designed hub program, you want sustainability, and it has to be able to withstand changes of leadership. You also have to have the other bigger players—i.e., the province, usually—on board. I believe, or from what I understand, the Province of Saskatchewan is very much on board and almost in a driver's seat for that program.

[Francis Scarpaleggia, Liberal, Lac-Saint-Louis, QC]

Right. But as you say, the smaller the community, the more intense the politics, really. Everyone knows each other, maybe, and therefore the greater the potential resistance. Something that would work in Calgary, a bigger city, or even Prince Albert might not work as well in a smaller community, just because of the closeness of the people in the community.

[Chief Doug Palson]

Again, I'm basing that a little bit on my experience and speculation. I don't think it's something we should be afraid of trying, but there are certainly unique challenges. That's all I'm saying.

[Francis Scarpaleggia, Liberal, Lac-Saint-Louis, QC]

Yes. Given the distances, if you do try it, you might want to use this video conferencing technology.

Would the police service have the resources to adopt this kind of technology, which makes the whole hub and spoke process a little bit more expensive? Or is the fact that resources may be scarce perhaps an obstacle to adopting the hub and spoke model in communities that cover a large area?

[Chief Doug Palson]

I'll use our situation as an example. We're a program under the tribal council, but each of our communities is a unique community. They're their own community, and they have their own chief and council. For their issues, for instance, or for their identified people in need in that particular community, I think it would have to be a community hub that would do it.

There are some shared social services in child and family services across the communities, but for a lot of it, they are independent in the community. So it's not so much the technology piece; it's more the people piece.

[Francis Scarpaleggia, Liberal, Lac-Saint-Louis, QC]

Right. Interesting.

How many first nation communities would have first nations police forces versus the RCMP? It would either be a first nations police force or the RCMP, I imagine. It wouldn't be a provincial police force, like in Ontario or in Quebec.

[Chief Doug Palson]

No, in my world it's the RCMP. But in Ontario and Quebec it's the provincial police for those provinces. There are a lot of first nation communities being policed by OPP or by the Quebec provincial police.

[Francis Scarpaleggia, Liberal, Lac-Saint-Louis, QC]

What leads a community—

[The Vice-Chair, NDP, Randall Garrison]

It will have to be a quick question.

[Francis Scarpaleggia, Liberal, Lac-Saint-Louis, QC]

—to choose a first nations police force model versus a provincial force or the RCMP? What would lead to that choice?

[Chief Doug Palson]

I'll use an example. I have several communities right now—and I'll use the term “lining up”—that want our services in their community. Basically, what they're seeing is that when they speak to these communities and see some of the things we're doing in their neighbouring communities, they want that for their communities. They want that presence, and they want that connection. They want some of the programming we do in our crime prevention stuff. Some of our communities are relatively small and a model of policing delivered from, for instance, the RCMP or OPP or something like that, it doesn't fit. That type of programming and presence in the community wouldn't jibe with how they staff and how they provide service to the community.

[The Vice-Chair, NDP, Randall Garrison]

Thank you.

I will now give the floor to Ms. Michaud for five minutes.

[Élaine Michaud, NDP, Portneuf—Jacques-Cartier, QC]

Thank your for appearing before us today.

I would like to briefly come back to the issue of funding. It was indeed an important part of your presentation. Based on my understanding, you are decrying the fact that the funding is neither stable nor predictable and that, therefore, it is harder to meet the needs of police forces in the first nations communities.

If your overall budget increases over time, but certain programs are eliminated, such as the Police Officer Recruitment Fund, which several first nations communities have used, it creates the kind of problem you raised in your presentation.

Is my understanding correct?

[Chief Doug Palson]

Yes, if I understand exactly what you're referring to. I'm not clear on the question.