Public Safety Committee on June 6th, 2013

[The Vice-Chair, NDP, Randall Garrison]

We'll turn to the opposition side for seven minutes.

Mr. Rafferty.

[John Rafferty, NDP, Thunder Bay—Rainy River, ON]

Thank you very much, Chair, and thank you for being here, Chief Palson.

I think you'll probably agree, however, that not all first nations police services are created equal. There are some who have a large fly-in component, for example.

This wasn't my line of questioning, but I want to carry on with what Ms. Bergen was saying. In those communities—I'm thinking of northern Ontario, where I live, and of the NAN communities in particular—I know that the first nations they serve do their best to provide as much service as they can to the police; for example, by providing housing, and spaces to work, and so on. I didn't want anybody to be left with the impression that first nation bands themselves are not contributing to the overall policing picture.

It has been 21 years now, I guess—since 1992. Over that time, what are some of the frustrations that you have heard from chiefs of police? I don't want to steer you in a particular direction in that answer, but I'm thinking, for example, that the fairly high turnover rate among officers is probably one thing you have heard from chiefs.

Is there anything else you'd like to highlight?

[Chief Doug Palson]

Thank you for steering me that way. I became rather focused on my world, on my police service in Manitoba, and you're absolutely right. We are a national association, and there are significant differences, especially with the challenges my colleagues in Ontario and northern Ontario face. They are huge. Sometimes I wonder how they actually do it, although I think the relationship with the Province of Ontario is probably a little better than ours is in our situation.

Yes, there is a high turnover of members, especially with the Nishnawbe-Aski. They really struggle with that issue, because of the fly-in, the isolation, working alone, and those sorts of things. We have experienced some of it too. A lot of it happens when things start to slide salary-wise and the members are looking around. We have stabilized a bit. We were able to get a modest increase in the last couple of years to help retain our members.

The other frustration that we all face is the frustration of the instability we have faced in the last several years—

[John Rafferty, NDP, Thunder Bay—Rainy River, ON]

Are you talking about funding?

[Chief Doug Palson]

Yes, I mean funding instability.

The most recent announcement in March was well received, adding some solid ground. The stable funding piece, though, is still an issue for all of us chiefs.

[John Rafferty, NDP, Thunder Bay—Rainy River, ON]

Yes, it's pretty hard to plan, going forward.

This leads me into my next question. One of the things we've been studying in this economics of policing study is certain models that are changing police work, certainly in Canada, and also elsewhere.

You touched on social services in your preamble. We're looking at these other models, and particularly at partnering with social services. I imagine that would be a very difficult task for many first nations police services.

[Chief Doug Palson]

Yes. The concept is great. I see that we have to go there, but it is very challenging in some of our communities, because some of those social services entities, although most of them exist in some form or other, don't exist with the same capacity as in an urban centre or something along those lines. It is very challenging.

[John Rafferty, NDP, Thunder Bay—Rainy River, ON]

Have you heard any rumblings from the provinces about their part of partnering, saying that they are going to have to cut back, that you are going to have to cut?

Are provinces talking about that? Is this a reality going forward, or in general are the provinces quite content to continue the funding formula?

[Chief Doug Palson]

I think in general they're quite content to continue the funding. Most provinces are in the same situation as the federal government may be with respect to overall economics in general, and so they are not forecasting any significant increases either.

There is still continued finger pointing between the province and the federal government with respect to funding. Sometimes, unfortunately, it appears that it's used as a crutch on each side to say, “We're good to go with this amount of funding, but it's them; they are not going to give their share”—that sort of thing.

[John Rafferty, NDP, Thunder Bay—Rainy River, ON]

I just want to ask a question, the glass-half-full question. What do first nations police services do right in Canada? Why is it important that they even exist?

[Chief Doug Palson]

Actually, it's amazing the work we do given some of the circumstances, challenges, and instability in funding levels we have. I see them as being embedded into the fabric of the community.

I'm being careful not to make this a criticism of other policing services or delivery models, but with the self-administered services you're connected with the community. We do our best to try to have as large a complement of members who are first nations or of aboriginal descent as possible, which helps. We work closely with the community. That's the biggest piece.

In some cases it's something as simple as a language issue. Some of our communities are still very traditional. The one in particular I'm thinking of is an Ojibway community where a lot of the people, even some of the younger people, still speak that language. We have several officers there, and it's really beneficial they can communicate that way.

[John Rafferty, NDP, Thunder Bay—Rainy River, ON]

I don't live in a NAN policing area, but I do live in the Treaty 3—

[The Vice-Chair, NDP, Randall Garrison]

Sorry, John, it's a quick question and a quick answer.

[John Rafferty, NDP, Thunder Bay—Rainy River, ON]

—area, and I'd just like to concur with what you said. As I travelled around the riding this summer, Treaty 3 police would be very visible at powwows and all sorts of things. They certainly do a good job.

I must say that they're certainly well received by the first nations where they are. I agree it's a valuable service. I do think we have to make sure they're funded properly, to make sure they continue.

I don't know if you want to make a comment. I was just making a comment.

[Chief Doug Palson]

Yes. My colleague Chief Conrad DeLaronde is doing a great job over there in Treaty 3. They're a well-respected police service across the country, actually.

[The Vice-Chair, NDP, Randall Garrison]

Thank you.

We'll turn to Mr. Norlock.

[Rick Norlock, Conservative, Northumberland—Quinte West, ON]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

Through you, to the witness, thank you for appearing today.

I have a little bit of experience with first nations policing, having worked along the James Bay and Hudson Bay coasts, assisting first nations policing.

I just want to go over a couple of the statistics with you. I just wonder if there are some similarities between where I policed and your area. You say the population you police is about 8,000. Your budget's about $5.2 million per year.

I worked in Northumberland County, and I believe, if I remember correctly, our budget for about 70,000 people was about $5.5 million. It was a much smaller area, I will admit, with three detachments. In northern Ontario, with the Ontario Provincial Police, the outfit I was with, some of our detachments were between 100 and 200 miles apart.

I just want to talk about some numbers here.

First of all, I have to say that the socio-economic issues you deal with can be, in some areas, significantly different, so the funding formula has to be adjusted to that reality. I readily see that.

I didn't write down the exact number, but I think you said you had somewhere in the vicinity of 30-some officers.

[Chief Doug Palson]

We have 31 sworn officers.

[Rick Norlock, Conservative, Northumberland—Quinte West, ON]

You have 31 sworn officers, with a civilian complement of—

[Chief Doug Palson]

We have 12 civilians.

[Rick Norlock, Conservative, Northumberland—Quinte West, ON]

You have 12 civilians. Okay. I think that would be pretty close to the average police force in terms of civilian versus uniformed members.

If I can carry on a little bit, you mentioned funding. Let me just set the record somewhat straight. I'm just going to use rough numbers because numbers float around this place and in our heads and at every level.

Since I took office seven years ago, there's been a 30% increase for first nations policing. As you indicated, there was recently an agreement committing about $612 million over the next five years to first nations policing, and in particular, additional funding in 2011 of $30 million over two years. That brings the funding level up to pretty reasonable.

You're right about the economics of policing. I'm going to ask a couple of quick questions, and please feel free to correct me if I'm wrong. When you talk about levels of governments arguing with each other, I, like you, don't like to see that. I like to see us working together. Federal government transfers to the provinces, in particular Manitoba, which I believe has about 30% of the provincial GDP from transfer payments—

[Candice Bergen, Conservative, Portage—Lisgar, MB]

It's 40%.

[Rick Norlock, Conservative, Northumberland—Quinte West, ON]

It's 40%. I've just been corrected by someone who lives there.

We have not decreased.... As a matter of fact, we've increased transfer payments to the provinces. When the provinces say they can't afford it, I just say we've kept our part of the bargain.

Has your police force contemplated bringing in some civilian volunteer staff?

I recall, when I worked along the James Bay and Hudson Bay coast, they had peacekeepers. I know they did a pretty good job. They're like volunteer bylaw officers. Are there any first nation territories in your area that have peacekeepers or something like a police auxiliary?

[Chief Doug Palson]

Our service did have auxiliary at one time. The struggles they had were in trying to generate the interest from the community to participate in the auxiliary program. It was before my time. What I heard about the auxiliary program, when it did exist there, is that they would get interest, but it wasn't from the actual community. It was from neighbouring communities and individuals from towns or the city who wanted to get some experience and be able to build towards a policing career, that sort of thing. They did an okay job.

Provincially there were some issues with regard to liabilities and things like that, which I think led to the demise of the auxiliary program. We could initiate an auxiliary program in some version. Unlike our neighbours In Saskatchewan, for example, under their provincial police act, the province still recognizes some version of a special constable. Manitoba doesn't do that anymore. They used to. I'm not sure if they're going to be re-evaluating that. So we have to be careful with what kinds of authorities and duties and responsibilities we would have any such volunteers participate in. We do summer student programs and things like that.

[Rick Norlock, Conservative, Northumberland—Quinte West, ON]

How about some of the first nation territories, the individual municipal-type level governance? Have they contemplated bringing in bylaw officers? I know with the Ontario Provincial Police, we often—when we're negotiating contracts with municipalities—negotiate the kinds of calls that uniformed officers will go on. If they have a robust bylaw enforcement officer regime, it can often reduce your policing costs.

Have your first nations' chiefs contemplated that? Secondly, do you operate under the community policing model? Generally you bring in, as you know, folks from different walks of life in the community as well as your municipal leadership—or in this case your first nations' leadership—and talk about how to address crime in the area. Sometimes that might stimulate the municipality into forming a better relationship. When I talk about a better relationship, I mean a better working relationship with their police.

Could you talk about those two items?