Evidence of meeting #32 for Public Safety and National Security in the 41st Parliament, 2nd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was threat.

A video is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Bob Paulson  Commissioner, Royal Canadian Mounted Police
Michel Coulombe  Director, Canadian Security Intelligence Service
François Guimont  Deputy Minister, Department of Public Safety and Emergency Preparedness

3:30 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Daryl Kramp

This is meeting number 32 of the Standing Committee on Public Safety and National Security.

Today, as a result of a motion presented, this meeting is dedicated to discussing threats posed to Canada's national security by individuals returning to Canada from having been involved with terrorist entities abroad, including the Islamic State in Iraq and the Levant, or ISIL. We have our witnesses gathered here today.

We thank you very much for attending.

Of course, we have with us the Honourable Steven Blaney, the Minister of Public Safety and Emergency Preparedness. We also have, from the Department of Public Safety and Emergency Preparedness, the deputy minister, Mr. François Guimont. From the Canadian Security Intelligence Service, we have Mr. Michel Coulombe, director. And from the Royal Canadian Mounted Police, we have Commissioner Bob Paulson.

Welcome, gentlemen. We certainly do appreciate your coming here today. As we do know, this is of global interest and, of course, of serious Canadian interest. We thank you for your appearance today.

Minister Blaney, I believe you have an opening statement.

You're on, sir.

3:30 p.m.

Lévis—Bellechasse Québec

Conservative

Steven Blaney ConservativeMinister of Public Safety and Emergency Preparedness

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

First of all, I would like to thank the members of the committee for giving me the opportunity to speak abut the important issue of terrorism.

Canada faces serious and—

3:30 p.m.

Liberal

Wayne Easter Liberal Malpeque, PE

Point of order, Mr. Chair.

3:30 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Daryl Kramp

Mr. Easter.

3:30 p.m.

Liberal

Wayne Easter Liberal Malpeque, PE

Mr. Chair, it continues to puzzle me why a minister comes before a committee, has the full resources of the department, and does not come with a translated, prepared statement. He is going to be reading from notes. It benefits us as a committee to have that statement in front of us, so I'm asking, through you, Mr. Chair, if the minister has a statement that we could follow.

3:30 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Daryl Kramp

I would just ask the minister, does he have a statement that could be translated, that we could prepare? If not, we will proceed today.

3:30 p.m.

Conservative

Steven Blaney Conservative Lévis—Bellechasse, QC

Mr. Chair, I will give my statement in both official languages and we have excellent interpreters. Naturally, I might stray from the prepared text. I do not have a document to distribute to the committee members.

However, this afternoon, I would like to table, in both official languages, the 2014 Public Report on the Terrorist Threat to Canada, in which you will find the main elements of the presentation that I will give to the committee in both official languages. As a Quebecker and a Canadian, I am extremely proud to speak to you in French in this place on an issue of such importance.

3:30 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Daryl Kramp

Fine. Thank you very much.

Thank you for the interjection, Mr. Easter.

You now have the floor to proceed, Mr. Blaney.

3:30 p.m.

Conservative

Steven Blaney Conservative Lévis—Bellechasse, QC

Thank you.

Canada faces serious and significant threats associated with violent extremism.

In recent months, the situation in Iraq has continued to deteriorate. The militants of the Islamic State of Iraq and the Levant—which I will be referring to as the Islamic State this afternoon—have been carrying out acts of indescribable violence throughout the country.

The world is horrified by the brutality of this group of terrorists and its followers. Conflicts such as those raging in Syria and Iraq are extremely troubling, not just because of their violence, but also because of the instability they create in the region.

That is why we are taking action. Yesterday, on a confidence vote, our Parliament decided to approve humanitarian aid and a six-month combat mission, and to join 60 countries in the fight against terrorism.

We have spent a significant amount of time thinking about the barbaric atrocities committed by ISIL abroad. Today, I want and would like to focus on the threat they pose to Canadians in our streets and communities here in Canada.

Canada, like other countries, including some of our closest allies, has seen a small but notable number of its citizens travel abroad in order to take part in terrorist activities. The conflict in Syria in particular is attracting an increasing number of people. Some are joining terrorist groups, including the Islamic State and Jabhat al-Nusra, a group with ties to al Qaeda.

The Government of Canada is aware of at least 130 individuals with ties to Canada who are suspected of participating in terrorist activities such as training and fundraising for terrorist purposes, and also planning and carrying out terrorist operations.

Some have died. Some remain abroad. We know of about 80 who have returned to Canada.

Let me be clear that these individuals posing a threat to our security at home have violated Canadian law, as passed by this Parliament in the Combating Terrorism Act. These dangerous individuals, some skilled and desiring to commit terrorist activity, pose a serious threat to law-abiding Canadians. I can confirm for Canadians that, as we speak, the RCMP is investigating these individuals and will seek to put them behind bars where they belong.

We are taking concrete action to protect the safety and security of Canadians.

Canada's counterterrorism strategy continues to be the basis for a safer and more resilient Canada. The strategy has four key elements—prevent, detect, deny and respond—and guides our response to extremism.

Canadian security agencies are successful at uncovering and disrupting terrorist plots that would have had devastating consequences had they succeeded. Just last year, our national security agencies dealt with a plot to attack a passenger train en route from New York to Toronto and a plot to detonate a series of improvised explosive devices at the B.C. legislature during Canada Day celebrations.

I would like to state that, in this case, one of the suspects was studying engineering at Laval University, in Quebec City. He is now facing criminal charges.

The gravity of the loss of life that would have occurred had these hateful plans come to fruition should give us all pause as legislators and is a dire call for an appropriate response to the threat. That is why our government passed critical new tools for our security agencies to deal with those who hate our freedom and seek to cause us harm.

Under the Combating Terrorism Act, which went into effect in May 2013, leaving or attempting to leave Canada to participate in terrorist activities is now a criminal offence.

It gives our national security agencies new powers to investigate and prosecute terrorist travel-planning and to stop potential extremist travellers before they leave the country. We passed the Strengthening Canadian Citizenship Act to ensure that those who take up arms against the Canadian Armed Forces or those who are convicted of engaging in terrorist activities can no longer remain Canadian citizens.

The RCMP is heading an extremist travellers tactical group, which includes a number of departments and key national security organizations. The group will examine cases of extremist travellers and intervene in the most serious and urgent cases.

I would like to congratulate the RCMP for having recently charged Hasibullah Yusufzai, a British Columbia resident, with joining a terrorist organization. That is the first time charges have been laid under the Combatting Terrorism Act. Those charges were laid in July of this year.

We recently have listed Jabhat al-Nusra as a terrorist entity, which means that it is a criminal offence to provide any sort of assistance or support to the group, either at home or abroad. Recently, our Conservative government announced the listing of the Islamic State in Iraq and the Levant—we call them the Islamic State—as a terrorist organization, in all its forms and identities, making it clear that joining or attempting to join this despicable group is a terrorist offence. Those who associate with this barbaric group should face the full extent of Canadian law.

As the Prime Minister said in the House of Commons this past Friday, in the coming weeks, we will bring forward additional measures to strengthen the ability of our security services, law enforcement, and national security organizations to monitor terrorists and those Canadians who have literally been brainwashed to take part in this evil cause.

Be assured, Mr. Chair, that they will face the full force of the law.

Of course, we continue to work with the United States and other countries in order to protect our border.

Some of the other methods we are using to counter terrorist threats include the Passenger Protect Program, which identifies individuals who may pose a threat to aviation security. Under the program, an individual may be prevented from boarding an aircraft. We can even revoke passports on national security grounds.

Mr. Chair, protecting Canadians from violent, barbaric terrorists who seek to harm us and our way of life is the first duty of any government. It is a responsibility that I know you take very seriously. It is a responsibility that I take very, very seriously.

We must take a strong stand, in no uncertain terms.

Barbarity is not a Canadian value and will never ever be one.

The Islamic State is a barbaric group of terrorists who despise us and our way of life. We will take any action necessary to keep Canadians safe from this evil entity.

That said, our action extends beyond enforcement. The first pillar of our counterterrorism strategy is prevention. Preventing violent extremism is an essential element of our response, and that is why some of the important work is being done in this regard as we speak. These events have helped us establish relationships and allow us to assure cultural communities that we are working with them to ensure that our youth do not become radicalized and that those seeking to radicalize them are stopped.

That's what the Kanishka project is all about. We are funding research that is studying the participation of western extremist travellers in the conflict in Syria: how they communicate and how they travel. This research will give us the building blocks that we can use to develop better strategies to stop radicalization before it ever manifests itself.

The most effective response to criminal activity of any kind, including violent extremism, is found in the partnerships that police officers build with the communities they serve.

These partnerships require police officers who are well informed, aware of the problems and who have a deep understanding of the dynamics on the ground, which allows them to recognize the warning signs and intervene before a crime takes place.

The RCMP counterterrorism information officer initiative provides front-line police officers and other first responders with essential terrorism awareness training. These counterterrorism officers are equipped both to inform and to educate others within their agencies so they can identify national security threats and violent extremist behaviour at the earliest possible stage.

More than 1,700 candidates have participated in the program since its establishment five years ago. In the last year alone, more than 325 people have been trained by the counterterrorism team.

How do we stop people who are radicalized but have not yet engaged in terrorist activity? Early intervention is key to a preventive approach to counter violent extremism. RCMP members are working with local agencies and community resources to develop intervention programming on violent extremists that is aimed primarily at young people at the periphery of violent extremist activity.

To conclude, Mr. Chair, I would like to reiterate how important it is that we continue to detect, prevent and thwart plots in our country as well as dissuade anyone who might be tempted to take such action or engage in terrorism or extremism.

Despite the successes, despite the unwavering vigilance of our intelligence and enforcement agencies, and despite the tremendous support that we receive from our communities, we remain acutely aware of this ongoing threat. We can never take the safety and security of our citizens for granted.

Addressing terrorism, addressing the related problems of radicalization to violence and extremist travel, requires the concerted effort of many partners. Together we must remain vigilant in this global fight and adapt to the changing nature of its threat. To this end, our government will not hesitate to continue to provide law enforcement with the tools they need to prevent further radicalization in this country and to arrest those who would seek to do us harm, as we already have.

As members of this very important committee, I count on your support to pass swiftly those important measures when tabled. I encourage members of all parties to put past stances behind them and to support our government's efforts to keep Canadians safe from barbaric organizations like the Islamic State and other terrorist entities here in Canada.

Thank you.

3:45 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Daryl Kramp

Thank you very much, Minister.

Are there any other opening comments? We're fine?

Thank you very much.

We will now go our rounds of questioning. The first round will be for seven minutes. We will start with the parliamentary secretary.

Ms. James, you have the floor.

3:45 p.m.

Conservative

Roxanne James Conservative Scarborough Centre, ON

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Welcome to the committee, Minister, and other guests.

I remember when the Toronto 18 got mentioned in the news some time ago. I have to tell you, I was probably not alone in being shocked that this type of activity was going on here in Canada, with more and more information coming out about people who are travelling overseas to engage in terrorism and join ISIL and other groups. We've also heard stories in recent news about Australia and Britain being able to thwart attacks that were going happen in their country. Yet right now in Canada...and probably some members in the House believe that Canadians will be immune from terrorism and can somehow escape terrorism on Canadian soil if we hide in the darkest corners of Canada with the lights out.

Minister, can you please explain your opinion on this, on why that type of ideology is in fact dangerous and that we could become complacent and not react to the real threat it poses to all of us here in Canada?

3:45 p.m.

Conservative

Steven Blaney Conservative Lévis—Bellechasse, QC

I thank the parliamentary secretary for her question.

You are right, terrorism is a threat. This is a reality for our national security and law enforcement agencies. I was given the opportunity to meet with students in Bellechasse, and this afternoon I thought in particular about a young Quebecker, Annemarie Desloges, who was doing her shopping in Nairobi, Kenya, a little more than a year ago when she fell victim to a terrorist attack. So did a fellow Canadian from British Columbia. It happened in Nairobi, Kenya. It could also happen here.

We were successful, as I mentioned in my speech, in deterring two terrorist plots, one in Victoria, B.C., and the other one that planned to derail a train between Toronto and New York. Another one that we were successful in deterring was the Toronto 18. Now the Combating Terrorism Act legislation that we passed is enabling all of our law enforcement authorities to intervene before an attack occurs. That's how charges were laid against some terrorists.

Let me quote what a judge said about a terrorist who was sentenced to 10 years in jail for planning to join the Islamic jihadist group in Somalia. Ontario Superior Court Justice Deena Baltman said that he was the first Canadian to be convicted for attempting to join an overseas terrorist group, and as such required a sentence that might deter others: “Terrorists are the worst kinds of cowards because they deliberately target innocent members of the public who are not prepared for combat.”

We have to send a strong signal, and she did it as a judge. As politicians, we have to do everything in our power and within the scope of the law and our rights to empower our law enforcement agencies so they are able to do their job, which is to protect us. That's our duty as politicians, from all parties, to support those reasonable measures that are put forward to increase our capability, and especially to track those travelling citizens who are willing to commit terrorist acts, whether here or abroad. The judge went on to add, “And despite being the recipient of a privileged Western education, with its emphasis on free thought, [this individual] aspired to join a terrorist group that seeks to annihilate those who think differently.”

We cannot negotiate with those who want to cut off our heads. We are determined and resolved to tackle terrorism. That's why we need to move on with our strategy and bring forward tools that are needed by our law enforcement and national security community to tackle terrorism.

3:50 p.m.

Conservative

Roxanne James Conservative Scarborough Centre, ON

Thank you, Minister.

In your opening remarks you referred to ISIL, and used the term “barbaric atrocities”. Also in your remarks you indicated that you had listed ISIL as a terrorist entity. Of course, we all know this, but how does listing ISIL as a terrorist entity impact the funding and the recruitment of individuals here in Canada?

3:50 p.m.

Conservative

Steven Blaney Conservative Lévis—Bellechasse, QC

Thank you for your question.

As you know, as a country, like many western countries, we are moving forward with the listing of terrorist entities. The reason we are doing that is multi-purpose. Here I may let Mr. Coulombe comment.

The first one is clearly to deter and cut any source of funding, because some of those terrorist entities were using supposedly noble causes to channel funding to be used for terrorism purposes. We need to inform Canadians that those entities are terrorist, that they don't share Canadian values, and that they are willing to use violence to attain their means. So the listing of terrorist entities is cutting their funding and enabling our law enforcement to keep track of those involved in those activities. It also makes it an illegal and criminal offence to be involved in any way with those organizations.

That's why we've lately listed the Islamic State. They were coming somewhat out of another entity that was already listed, but we felt the need, since they were distinct, to list them separately. We also listed other entities.

Wherever there are terrorist entities, we are tracking them. In order to protect Canadians, we are always monitoring the groups that could represent a threat.

3:50 p.m.

Conservative

Roxanne James Conservative Scarborough Centre, ON

Thank you.

Chair, can I ask how many more minutes I have?

3:50 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Daryl Kramp

You are now finished. Thank you very kindly.

Now we will go to Mr. Scott, please, for seven minutes.

3:50 p.m.

NDP

Craig Scott NDP Toronto—Danforth, ON

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

Welcome, Minister, Commissioner, and Director.

Minister, I was wondering if I could go straight to what I see as the heart of the matter, but first of all, I should say that I'm really pleased that the government continues to emphasize the first step in the resilience report from 2011, which is prevention. It's not just about people coming back and then the criminal law taking over. Prevention would also kick in even when they're returning, as I would hope we would all agree.

My question is on where the rubber hits the road, which is with communities and particularly families. We all read in the newspapers often enough or see in the news that a parent says, “I didn't know”, but just as often they say they knew, that they had started to see some signs. They say, “He was hanging out with the wrong people, becoming dogmatic in his views, he disappeared, then he did this, and I didn't know what to do.”

In a recent article about the Edmonton Somali community, Mahamad Accord, the head of the Canadian Somali Congress of Western Canada, simply has this advice: “If you suspect your children are going to be recruited...go to the authorities. Save your child while you can.”

My question, Minister—and with any assistance from your colleagues—is simply this: what exactly is triggered if a parent now goes to the authorities with these kinds of worries and suspicions? Do we have a proper system in place to know what to do? What do we do?

3:55 p.m.

Conservative

Steven Blaney Conservative Lévis—Bellechasse, QC

I thank you for your question.

There is a multi-level approach to prevention. At the political level, we have established a cross-cultural round table where we meet with leaders of communities. As I have indicated, we have our Kanishka program, which is looking at the ways in which recruiters are functioning. How do they recruit? How do they communicate? Also, how are they making use of social media? That's critical. It's very important.

Also, there's the outreach program of the RCMP. Maybe the commissioner can talk about it.

But I can tell you what is critical. We have seen successful operations that were rightly initiated by parents who were concerned by the behaviour of some individuals getting radicalized. I will turn to Commissioner Paulson, who has an important record on reaching out. You will see that the numbers are quite telling.

3:55 p.m.

Commissioner Bob Paulson Commissioner, Royal Canadian Mounted Police

Thank you, Minister.

I guess what I would say to your question is that there are two challenges in that fact pattern you're putting forward of a parent trying to reach out to communities to engage with and intercede on behalf of their family member.

The first challenge is getting family members to act early enough. The second challenge is getting our front-line officers—and it's not just the RCMP, but all of our partner police agencies across this country—to be able to recognize the importance of what's being referred to them and to engage the right sorts of resources in the communities.

That's what our counterterrorism information officer program does. It inserts in many front-line police forces and offices informed officers who know how to manage that. In the pre-criminal space, before we're into a criminal investigation, there is an opportunity for all sorts of people to come in and bring their expertise to bear.

The other thing we do, once we have a sense that the individual is heading down that path, is try to sort of hub the resources that are available from our partner agencies and from government and local government, and intervene with the family, so that we are able to act and prevent prior to the criminal investigation being launched.

3:55 p.m.

NDP

Craig Scott NDP Toronto—Danforth, ON

Thank you very much. I think that gets me on the right road for understanding that there at least is some kind of system in place, one that doesn't simply, say, create a dilemma for parents. I know that some parents would say that if they report, the state of the law is such that maybe their child will be arrested and charged. As long as the message gets out that in fact the police themselves are organized to approach it differently, in the way you've described, I think we're partway to an effective response. That's really good to hear.

Minister, we've heard a lot about Security Council Resolution 2178 of September 24, a very comprehensive resolution that details a whole bunch of response measures that all states are called upon to do with respect to radicalization mostly, and the foreign fighter phenomenon. I was wondering if I could ask you about it. My question is simple. Is new legislation being prepared or going to be prepared as a consequence of Security Council Resolution 2178?

3:55 p.m.

Conservative

Steven Blaney Conservative Lévis—Bellechasse, QC

Legislation is being prepared to adjust to the reality of the terrorist threat we are facing in this country, and this more broadly would take into account the resolution. So indirectly it does link to those resolutions.

3:55 p.m.

NDP

Craig Scott NDP Toronto—Danforth, ON

One reason I'm asking is that the resolution is quite broad, so I can imagine there are some features of our legal system that may not exactly respond to the resolution. A second direct question—I have two together actually—is whether Canada is considering or we will need to implement an exit control system as a consequence of the resolution.

3:55 p.m.

Conservative

Steven Blaney Conservative Lévis—Bellechasse, QC

No.

3:55 p.m.

NDP

Craig Scott NDP Toronto—Danforth, ON

Secondly, in testimony before the Senate on the combatting terrorism bill, Bill S-7, the former director of CSIS, I believe, testified that cabinet had before it some proposals to approach the no-fly list differently and to expand the list. I'm wondering whether or not, partly as a consequence of the Security Council resolution or in general, any decision has been taken on using no-fly lists differently from how they've been used in the past.

4 p.m.

Conservative

Steven Blaney Conservative Lévis—Bellechasse, QC

Let me be very clear that we are really not contemplating exit controls. We would leave that to a totalitarian state.

What we are contemplating—and this is part of the agreement between President Obama and Prime Minister Harper—is information exchange. As you know, we already have this in place for foreign nationals, and it is working very well. We are committed to expanding it as is clearly stated in the “beyond the border” plan. This is part of the tool we can provide our law enforcement agencies to have more information on the influx of people, especially those representing a threat.

So we are indeed working on information sharing. You may remember last week secretary Jeh Johnson was here and he reiterated his will to see us working in that direction. We are committed, and we are committed to working with other European countries as well in sharing information, basically the information you find on a passport, which is already shared with the country where you are going. This is something we are working on.