Public Safety Committee on Jan. 29th, 2015

[Wayne Easter, Liberal, Malpeque, PE]

Both you and Ms. Pate have talked about the declining resources for treatment versus the increasing penalties, if I could call them that. Can either or both of you expand on that? How important are the resources for drug treatment in getting people healthy?

[The Chair, Conservative, Daryl Kramp]

Mr. Easter, you're well over your time.

A brief response from the witnesses would be welcome, but very brief.

[Catherine Latimer]

They're extremely important. We would really like to see CSC have additional resources that are specifically targeted for drug issues and reintegrations.

[Kim Pate]

From talking to staff here as well as prisoners, there's a lack of access to programs, a lack of availability. They may be offered for short periods of time, and as Mr. Grabowsky has said, a very small number of prisoners may have access. It's interesting; although Mr. Head reported the numbers have not gone up significantly overall, they certainly are continuing to grow for women. The lack of access to programs for women continues to be a huge issue, both for prisoners and staff.

[The Chair, Conservative, Daryl Kramp]

Fine. Thank you very much.

Now for five minutes, Madam Doré Lefebvre, s'il vous plaît.

[Rosane Doré Lefebvre, NDP, Alfred-Pellan, QC]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

I would like to thank our three guests for being here today.

It is extremely interesting to hear you talk about Bill C-12. I know that each and every one of you has a lot of experience and have seen things change in the last few decades.

I would like to come back to a question that Mr. Easter asked and the answer that Ms. Pate gave.

Ms. Pate, you said that women in our penitentiaries have difficulty accessing programs. Could you tell us a little more about that? What is the difference for women? What's changed in recent years?

[Kim Pate]

Well, it's because the numbers have increased astronomically. In fact, I was walking into the prison and luckily there was a staff member here, because the incredible expansion is such that trying to get around the new construction meant that I wasn't even sure how to get into the institution. I hadn't been here for a few months, almost a year.

We see huge expansion because of the numbers. We still are seeing double-bunking. As you heard from Mr. Grabowsky, the programming space in some cases is being increased in a more limited way in the prisons for women than perhaps is happening in the men's, but certainly not the access. If you are low security, you have more likelihood of having access to the programs, but if you are higher security, and there we see those with mental health issues and aboriginal women overrepresented in that group, they are less likely to have access.

If they are also then isolated either in the maximum security units or in segregation, they are less likely to have access and what access they do have to programs tends to be individual self-study types of programming. It is almost self-directed with occasionally someone visiting, and that's not because staff aren't trying. Whether it's the correctional officers or the programming staff, they call upon us to help. You see them. I mean, they requested that I provide some things, and we're happy to do that when we can. But when you're also talking about people with limited educational backgrounds and limited education being able to do self-study....

I have a 16-year-old and her ability to direct herself is questionable. When you have someone who has limited education, limited opportunities and limited capacity, their ability to self-direct also becomes limited. That's really most of what is available to those who have the greatest need, in our experience. Again, it's not just our organization that has seen this or Ms. Latimer's, but Mr. Grabowsky's organization is seeing it, as are others working within the system and calling for a change.

In terms of the Parole Board, one of the challenges when people don't access the programs is that even if the Parole Board is interested in releasing, if they feel that comfortable and are then going through the checklists of the correctional treatment plan, if someone has alcohol or drug treatment on their correctional treatment plan, that's hindering their release, even if the Parole Board wants to exercise their discretion.

I think we're seeing an escalating incremental increase in difficulty for people to be released in a way that is safe for them and for the community, not because they pose an ongoing risk to public safety, but because of having less access to programs and fewer opportunities. We're actually seeing now some people being released, as Catherine Latimer has pointed out, to the community at the end of their sentence, still not having access to those programs. Then we're trying to scramble to provide them in the community and provide supports because even though the Correctional Service of Canada may not be responsible for them at the warrant expiry, organizations like ours continue to try to provide the supports and look for those supports in the community.

[Rosane Doré Lefebvre, NDP, Alfred-Pellan, QC]

Thank you very much. Those were good explanations.

Mr. Grabowsky, you said that you weren't sure that Bill C-12 is a necessary tool. I find that to be a good point.

Are there tools that you consider necessary for the correctional officers you represent? In other words, are there truly useful tools that could counter the drug problem in the penitentiaries or help you in your work?

[Kevin Grabowsky]

Again, that's one of those very loaded questions.

[Rosane Doré Lefebvre, NDP, Alfred-Pellan, QC]

Sorry.

[Kevin Grabowsky]

It's not so much that we see this as a bill that is right or wrong. I mean I know it was said, “Oh, it's something new and we don't know”, but how it's written we don't see how to operationalize it to make it a useful thing. Certainly, somebody who has a condition for release and they want to breach that condition, they should be held accountable for it, but how is that going to operationalize with the wording that's here? That for us, for correctional officers, is one of our great concerns. I mean if you look even inside the prison, an inmate who has a dirty urinalysis or refuses, for years we have been saying why do we reward that behaviour with a private family visit? That may be how the drugs are coming in, through that private family visit, and we can't stop those kinds of things.

In terms of some of the tools that are needed inside the prison, certainly programming is a big one. Locking an inmate in a cell for 24 hours a day and throwing away the key may be something that sounds good, but as a person who has worked with inmates for as many years as I have, somebody has to open that door. It's what's on the other side of that door sometimes that you don't want to deal with.

[The Chair, Conservative, Daryl Kramp]

Thank you.

We're over the time here now, Madam Doré Lefebvre.

Ms. Ablonczy, please.

[Diane Ablonczy, Conservative, Calgary Nose Hill, AB]

I really appreciate the witnesses. I was saying to Ms. Latimer earlier that it's always good when we bring in legislation to hear from the real world. We appreciate your perspective.

Ms. Latimer, you mentioned, I believe, that about 80% of those entering prison have an addiction problem. Did I get that correct?

[Catherine Latimer]

That's accurate. Yes, 75% to 80% are diagnosed as having some sort of an addiction issue.

[Diane Ablonczy, Conservative, Calgary Nose Hill, AB]

Yes, so I think we're clear that this is a real problem—

[Catherine Latimer]

It's a serious problem, yes.

[Diane Ablonczy, Conservative, Calgary Nose Hill, AB]

—and obviously the government needs to do something in a policy framework to try to address this. I think that with 80% or so of those entering prisons having an addiction problem, it's clear that there's a link between addiction and criminality, criminal behaviour. Would you agree with that?

[Catherine Latimer]

I would say that's true. A lot of people were on substances at the time they committed the offence, and there's a lot of lower-level nuisance crime, I would say, by people who are addicted, because they need to pay for the drugs. You get continuing cycles of criminality connected with illegal drugs.

[Diane Ablonczy, Conservative, Calgary Nose Hill, AB]

If an offender is using drugs in prison, the chances of him or her avoiding addiction after release and thereby avoiding repeat criminal behaviour that is a danger to the community, that link isn't broken.

[Catherine Latimer]

You're raising a very important point. It's very key to ensure that the mechanisms of support are in place for people who have drug addiction issues and who are leaving prison. Whether that's methadone replacement therapy, or whether it's Narcotics Anonymous, whatever supports they need should be put in place.

As I mentioned, Guthrie House which is in place in British Columbia is working extremely well in terms of reintegrating into the community people who have a drug addiction. That's a peer-supported model, a therapeutic community that was created actually on the grounds of the prison, before people are released back into the community.

There are ways to do it, and it's important that it be done.

[Diane Ablonczy, Conservative, Calgary Nose Hill, AB]

It's good to see those best practices working, but the prison population is, if I can use a pun, a captive audience for these kinds of interventions. When Commissioner Head appeared, he gave us quite an overview of the suite of programs available in prison. I'll go through them quickly.

He said there was about $9 million spent on substance abuse programs. We spend about $10 million on violence prevention programs, over $2 million on family violence programming, $4.5 million on sex offender programming, $7 million on maintenance programming, $60 million on social programs, $14 million on integrated correctional program models, about $25 million on education, and then $42 million on core employment skills and employability activities. There's a broad and holistic suite of programs available.

The intent of this bill is to incentivize an offender who has an addiction problem not to continue addictive behaviour in prison, even though Mr. Grabowsky's colleagues are doing their best to take away that possibility.

I'm interested, Mr. Grabowsky, because of your experience with offenders. Do you see yourself saying to an offender that if they continue to use drugs, even though you're trying to keep them out of their hands, it is going to impact their bid for freedom at the end of their sentence? Do you see that as an incentive for offenders or for a large number...?

[The Chair, Conservative, Daryl Kramp]

Just a brief response, Mr. Grabowsky. Thank you.

[Kevin Grabowsky]

I don't know if it's that black and white. It's where that inmate is in his sentence, whether he's predator or prey in a jail. There are so many factors to come up with when you make that statement to the inmate in terms of whether he's going to consider it. His age and his affiliation are things that are taken into account to give that a black and white answer.

Incentives do work and incentives don't work.

[The Chair, Conservative, Daryl Kramp]

Thank you very much, Mr. Grabowsky.

Your time has expired, Ms. Ablonczy.

At this time, on behalf of the committee, I would certainly like to thank our witnesses, Ms. Latimer, Mr. Grabowsky, and Ms. Pate, for appearing before us today and giving us their time, energy, intelligence, and expertise. Thank you very much.

We'll suspend now for a brief change of witnesses.

[The Chair, Conservative, Daryl Kramp]

Colleagues, we're back in session for the second hour.

We have potentially three witnesses with us again. By video conference we do not have our witness yet, but we will try to make contact. We will proceed in the meantime without him.

We will follow our normal procedure whereby our witnesses are allowed up to 10 minutes for a presentation. After that we will then go to a Q and A with the rounds of questioning designated as per our routine orders.

Welcome to our witnesses.

With us from the Canadian Centre on Substance Abuse is Rebecca Jesseman, director. Welcome.

From the Office of the Correctional Investigator we have Howard Sapers, the correctional investigator. Accompanying him is Ivan Zinger, the executive director and general counsel. Welcome.

Should our video conference get up, for the information of the committee we will have from the Drug Prevention Network of Canada, David Berner, the executive director. We don't have the connectivity at this point. I'm not sure where we are with that, but we will proceed, of course.

We will start off on the order of the day, committee.

Ms. Jesseman, you have the floor for up to 10 minutes, please.