Thank you very much.
Mr. Easter.
Evidence of meeting #62 for Public Safety and National Security in the 41st Parliament, 2nd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site.) The winning word was chair.
A video is available from Parliament.
Evidence of meeting #62 for Public Safety and National Security in the 41st Parliament, 2nd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site.) The winning word was chair.
A video is available from Parliament.
5:45 p.m.
Director and General Counsel, Criminal Law Policy Section, Department of Justice
If it's necessary in the circumstances.
5:45 p.m.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Daryl Kramp
Thank you very much.
(Amendment negatived [See Minutes of Proceedings])
Thank you.
Colleagues, we will now deal with NDP amendment 14. I notify you at this point, of course, that there are some amendments that have a similar intent with a sunset provision. They are Liberal amendment 7, Bloc amendment 7, and Green Party amendment 33.
First of all, we will deal with amendment NDP-14.
Madame Doré Lefebvre.
5:45 p.m.
NDP
Rosane Doré Lefebvre NDP Alfred-Pellan, QC
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
I will not elaborate further on what we are calling for in amendment No. 14. We are not trying to fix the problems with clause 16. Once again, we are simply trying to bring the Conservatives to their senses by proposing that we add a sunset clause that provides for a review after three years. I debated the same thing with my colleagues at length regarding clause 2 and clause 11. I will therefore not comment further, but I hope that this time we can manage to convince the Conservatives.
5:45 p.m.
Conservative
LaVar Payne Conservative Medicine Hat, AB
Thank you, Chair.
Currently, as I understand it, there's no provision in this that is subject to a sunset clause. The addition of hate propaganda warrants the provisions on which proposed sections 83.222 and 83.223 are modelled, and they are not subject to a sunset clause. Currently, no Criminal Code offence is subject to a sunset clause, so on that basis, we can't support this.
Thank you.
5:45 p.m.
Liberal
Wayne Easter Liberal Malpeque, PE
Mr. Chair, I would have to say what a wonderful amendment this is, when you see so many parties basically suggesting the same amendment.
This does not in any way jeopardize the bill. We've had witness after witness here, and we've heard the testimony from the witnesses basically clarifying, at least from their perspective, what the Canadian Bar Association, Professors Roach and Forcese, and others have had to say. They've expressed some concerns. Whether those concerns are 100% legitimate or not, I honestly can't say, but they are concerns.
Sunset provisions like this one, which is worded well, lay out a requirement that Parliament itself will have to look at these clauses in the future. Whoever is here will have to look at what has happened under these particular provisions, which some people have expressed concerns about. They'll have to look at what I would call the good, the bad, and the ugly. They may have to add some and take some away. That, to me, makes sense. It does not jeopardize the bill.
Witnesses have asked us to look at this from that perspective, from a sound judgment point of view. I'd appeal to the government members to be supportive of what is a very reasonable amendment.
5:45 p.m.
Conservative
5:45 p.m.
Conservative
Roxanne James Conservative Scarborough Centre, ON
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
I can't believe that the NDP is suggesting that we put a sunset provision on an offence within the Criminal Code. I can't imagine for a moment what would happen if we were to do this or if the NDP were to suggest that we do this on every single offence within the Criminal Code.
I find it very strange that they've put a sunset provision on this so that it will cease to be in effect at the end of the date specified. Considering the fact that if they legitimately thought there was a problem with this offence, they must have recognized the fact that there would be problems fairly quickly and that it would have to be addressed much sooner than this particular date in this provision. I find it unbelievable that they would even suggest putting a sunset clause on this type of offence. I can't believe it.
5:50 p.m.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Daryl Kramp
Thank you very much.
(Amendment negatived [See Minutes of Proceedings])
Now, colleagues, we will move to LIB-7 and the chair will also advise you that once LIB-7 is moved, BQ-7 could not be moved at that point because it is identical. I will also advise you further that if LIB-7 is adopted, then BQ-7 and PV-33 could then not be moved because, again, it would create a conflict.
We will now go to LIB-7. Mr. Easter, I presume you would like to propose a motion.
5:50 p.m.
Liberal
Wayne Easter Liberal Malpeque, PE
I made the arguments previously in relation to the NDP amendment, Mr. Chair. I will not have anything further to add.
5:50 p.m.
Conservative
LaVar Payne Conservative Medicine Hat, AB
I want to repeat one thing that I said. Currently no Criminal Code offence is subject to a sunset clause so, we can't support it.
5:50 p.m.
Conservative
5:50 p.m.
NDP
Rosane Doré Lefebvre NDP Alfred-Pellan, QC
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
Although I like the idea behind the amendment presented by my colleague, Mr. Easter, I must vote against it because he said there would be a committee that includes senators. I do not consider them to be parliamentarians. I consider them to be unelected officials. I think the committee should be made up only of parliamentarians.
Therefore I will unfortunately vote against the amendment. That said, I want to say again that a sunset clause providing for a review should be included in clause 16.
5:50 p.m.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Daryl Kramp
On the amendment. All in favour? All opposed?
(Amendment negatived [See Minutes of Proceedings])
We will now go the PV-33.
5:50 p.m.
Green
Elizabeth May Green Saanich—Gulf Islands, BC
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
This amendment is also a sunset provision, so I have a feeling that I know where this is headed. It would be inserted on page 29 after line 28 to ensure that this provision will cease to have effect on the third anniversary of this coming into force. I know that it's not common to put in sunset clauses on Criminal Code provisions, but when they're as badly drafted as this and are so heavily criticized, if we can't delete them, at least let's put a sunset clause on them.
5:50 p.m.
Conservative
Roxanne James Conservative Scarborough Centre, ON
To reiterate what I said a few moments ago, and what Mr. Payne has expressed already, there are no other provisions that include sunset clauses, not with regards to anything. I cannot imagine for a moment if we had to put sunset clauses on every single offence within the Criminal Code so that at a certain date they would cease to exist. I can't believe that I'm reading these amendments, to be honest. I'm flabbergasted. If the member of the Green Party thinks that this is going to cause such problems, then I'm sure that we would have to revisit it much sooner than within three years. To say that it should cease to exist at that time is completely inappropriate. It's reckless, and I will not be supporting this amendment.
5:50 p.m.
Conservative
5:50 p.m.
NDP
Rosane Doré Lefebvre NDP Alfred-Pellan, QC
Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.
I thank my colleague, Ms. May, for presenting her amendment. I apologize that I must vote against it. As I already said, I think we must absolutely do a review after three years, which is why we need to include a sunset clause.
However, I would like to support what Mr. Easter said. Since each opposition party presented its own version of a sunset clause for clause 16, the government should perhaps acknowledge that there is a problem, whether it is with this clause, with clause 11 or with clause 2. It would be good if the government or the parliamentary secretary took that into consideration.
5:55 p.m.
Conservative
