Public Safety Committee on March 31st, 2015

[Wayne Easter, Liberal, Malpeque, PE]

So we're standing down the one that relates to alerting the Canadian Air Transport Security Authority.

The next amendment, then, Mr. Chair—

[The Chair, Conservative, Daryl Kramp]

That is amendment 3.2, Mr. Easter, yes.

[Wayne Easter, Liberal, Malpeque, PE]

Yes. The last numbers in the reference number are 367.

[The Chair, Conservative, Daryl Kramp]

Okay. I'll just bring that to my colleagues' attention.

The last three numbers of the reference number on your amendment are “367”.

[Wayne Easter, Liberal, Malpeque, PE]

This relates to the same witness, Mr. Chair. What it does is add another proposed subsection 9(1.1) that would read:

to a peace officer must provide such assistance as the air carrier may request when denying a person transportation under paragraph (a)

What witnesses confirmed with us is that in the United States there are procedures to have a law enforcement officer available just in case the situation turns violent. We don't have that in Canada, they indicate. When the passenger protect program came into being in our consultations, that was one of the recommendations that the government elected not to put into place at the time.

If you listen to the government, we are dealing with more volatile individuals than in a normal no-fly situation, and I think it is protection for the airline, protection for the people who work in the airline business, if the air carrier requests that a peace officer be provided for assistance. I therefore support this amendment.

[The Chair, Conservative, Daryl Kramp]

Thank you.

Mr. Norlock.

[Rick Norlock, Conservative, Northumberland—Quinte West, ON]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

I'm reluctant to vote yes to this. I think the current arrangement is ample. I'll tell you why.

Currently, most of our airports—for sure the large ones, but most of our airports—are separate entities that operate in municipalities. Some municipalities are policed by the RCMP; for the Greater Toronto Airports Authority, it is Peel Regional Police; in other jurisdictions, it's the Ontario Provincial Police—et cetera.

What this is requiring is to have an officer specifically assigned to duty at an airport. I can think of many small airports at which there might be four or five flights a day. I just think this is creating a burden where one need not be created. There have been no instances in which we have received, to my knowledge...there may be some, but no instances in which there were no officers available during a time of crisis that I can go into detail of—the ones I'm aware of—but there were police officers onsite. And if I remember correctly, the larger airports do have a 24-hour police presence.

[The Chair, Conservative, Daryl Kramp]

Thank you very much, Mr. Norlock.

Now we have Mr. Garrison.

[Randall Garrison, NDP, Esquimalt—Juan de Fuca, BC]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

What we have heard when we've consulted on this away from this table is that those employees of airlines who are expected to deliver these notices to people are very concerned, because now we're listing not only those who might be a threat to air transportation itself, but those who might be involved in terrorist activities. They have a very large concern about delivering messages to both a larger number of people and a broader group of people.

While I share Mr. Norlock's concern for the practicalities of this, what this says is that they must provide assistance as requested. It does not say there must be 24-hour assistance available at every airport. That's drawing I think the most extreme conclusion you could from this, but I know that there is concern among the staff of the airlines who work at the desks and have to deal with potential anger or, in this case, with plots that people are trying to carry out. Again, we will be supporting this as a reasonable measure to take and as something that is already in place in the United States.

[The Chair, Conservative, Daryl Kramp]

Thank you very much.

Now we have Ms. Ablonczy.

[Diane Ablonczy, Conservative, Calgary Nose Hill, AB]

I have a question for Mr. Garrison.

If there has to be assistance as requested, then clearly you have to be in the vicinity because you have a situation, right? That really does mean 24-hour coverage.

[The Chair, Conservative, Daryl Kramp]

Mr. Garrison, and then we'll come back to Mr. Payne and Mr. Norlock.

[Randall Garrison, NDP, Esquimalt—Juan de Fuca, BC]

With respect, most airlines are operating on schedules and know when they'll have flights going from airports, so they don't have them going 24 hours a day. If they're non-scheduled airlines, they will know what their charter schedules are, so they will be able to inform whatever authorities they need to of their schedule. As I said, you can draw the worst conclusion here about resources, but I don't think that necessarily is what will happen in practice.

[The Chair, Conservative, Daryl Kramp]

Thank you.

We have Mr. Payne and then Mr. Norlock.

[LaVar Payne, Conservative, Medicine Hat, AB]

Thank you, Chair.

Just to talk to the smaller airports, I live in Medicine Hat, where there's a smaller airport with four and maybe five flights a day, and certainly there aren't police officers there at all times.

You've talked about the schedule, but I can tell you that in fact in Medicine Hat we have a lot of flights cancelled because the airline isn't doing what it maybe should be doing in terms of getting the passengers to their next destination. It certainly creates an additional problem, obviously, with having to have a peace officer available.

[The Chair, Conservative, Daryl Kramp]

Thank you.

Mr. Norlock.

[Rick Norlock, Conservative, Northumberland—Quinte West, ON]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

I thank Mr. Garrison for some of his thought processes there. That got my thought processes going. In any of these consultations that he's done, I wonder if he's ever heard of a police department that refused to or that didn't send a police officer upon request.

I cannot think of any police department in the Dominion of Canada that, when asked for assistance in order to have people “keep the peace and be of good behaviour” would have said, “No, we're not coming.” They may have said that they couldn't come right away and would be there in a few minutes, but my experience in policing, although it's limited to Ontario, is that this would be a legitimate call for assistance and that it would be fulfilled.

I can understand that where we want to put everything in writing, well, then, I think it would be too much to handle. Really, I cannot see where a police department, when called by an airline that's saying they're going to give a person some bad news and their clerk or assistant is very concerned for her or his safety.... I'm sure they would send a police officer.

[The Chair, Conservative, Daryl Kramp]

Thank you very much.

Mr. Easter.

[Wayne Easter, Liberal, Malpeque, PE]

I find the resistance of the government members a little strange on this one. Simply put, if you have an individual who is on the no-fly list as a result of this legislation, or in other words, you're worried about potential terrorist activities.... As you know, most areas have police departments not too far away from an airport.

All the airline industry is asking for here is that when they need assistance, they can request that assistance. You have these individuals who are coming up and are told they can't on the flight to where they intended to go. If they're potential terrorists, as the legislation claims, then I certainly think that the government would be suggesting that it would do all it can to assist and to ensure that for regular staffers, who are not trained to defend themselves, there would be a peace officer present. It's a simple enough request.

[The Chair, Conservative, Daryl Kramp]

Thank you very much.

Okay. No further discussion? All—

Oh, excuse me. Yes, Ms. James?

[Roxanne James, Conservative, Scarborough Centre, ON]

I'm going to take out this page so I can see it front on. On this particular section, the government made an amendment to this already to remove “to do anything that, in the Minister's opinion...”. But for this particular direction, these points that we're discussing right now, this says “may make directions respecting, in particular....”, so this is not something that would be mandated or that would be an absolute requirement. Is the way I'm reading this correct?

[Ari Slatkoff, Senior Counsel, Public Safety Canada, Department of Justice]

No. As I understand it, this would be a separate provision, under 1.1. What the member was just reading—

[Roxanne James, Conservative, Scarborough Centre, ON]

Okay.

[Ari Slatkoff]

—was proposed subsection 9(1), which creates a power for the minister to “direct an air carrier to do” something “reasonable and necessary”.

The proposed subsection 9(1.1) would be a new requirement for peace officers to provide assistance to air carriers if the direction is made.

[Roxanne James, Conservative, Scarborough Centre, ON]

We've heard some comments on this side that there are some airports where a peace officer may not actually be there 24-7. Is there a cost associated with putting law enforcement in all of these locations for smaller aircraft?