Evidence of meeting #10 for Public Safety and National Security in the 42nd Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was c-7.
A recording is available from Parliament.
President, Mounted Police Professional Association of Canada
How do you manage that? Somebody has died. The auxiliary got shot. Now you are appealing the decision? Why, when it directly ties to the health and safety of our people?
When I was at the Senate standing committee, I gave testimony in regards to Bill C-42. I said that If this bill is allowed to go through with the total control of the commissioner or his delegates in it, then we were going to see more suicides in the RCMP.
We've had several since then. Every single one of the cases I have been involved in ties back to workplace issues. Let's fix this.
Liberal
Nathaniel Erskine-Smith Liberal Beaches—East York, ON
Let me say that it's absolutely unacceptable for anyone to feel intimidated in going to a member of Parliament and raising concerns with anything, to be perfectly frank. I trust, Mr. Merrifield, that you're here to give this committee advice. I trust that you won't be sanctioned for doing so. You are here to be helpful to our decision-making.
Mr. Merrifield, you mentioned a few times that the original charter application was driven by officers' safety and working conditions. Can you elaborate, and be specific as much as possible? Can you give examples of the safety and workplace issues you think ought to be on the bargaining table?
Director, Mounted Police Association of Ontario
Yes, I can.
In 2001 I was subject to rifle fire at the Fishing Lake First Nation reserve. I was 75 yards away from the door. I'm a very good shot. I'm what's known as a “crown shooter”. I did not have the right tool to perform my duties and defend myself or anyone else in the public. I required a carbine. Given the distances and the requirement for accuracy to engage a target when lethal force is required, I put the public at risk if I use a shotgun. I put others in the home at risk if I use a handgun, which is not accurate at those ranges. It's about the right tool for the job.
Then in 2005 it was Mayerthorpe. Then in 2006 it was Spiritwood. Then in 2014 it was Moncton.
In 2006 I spoke out as a member of the MPAO publicly to the media. Commissioner Zaccardelli wasn't fond of that. I had asked for carbines. It's not about militarization.
I use this as an example. It's a tool, just like any tool on my police belt. I go to a lot of calls for lost children. On my belt I have a gun, pepper spray, a baton, and a radio. I use none of them when dealing with the mother. I go, I hopefully find the child, and I return the child. I have those tools with me so that if I need them, and if something were to go bad, I can protect a member of the public or another police officer.
All we've asked for is tools, and that's what has been withheld.
Liberal
Nathaniel Erskine-Smith Liberal Beaches—East York, ON
There are a number of exclusions: deployment, conduct, law enforcement techniques, probation, discharge, demotion, and specific exclusions that could potentially be on the bargaining table.
I note, Mr. Banwarie and Mr. Keane, that you made reference to staffing, equipment, and the conduct of harassment specifically. If you add safety and working conditions related to safety, can we we limit it to those, or are you taking issue with other exclusions, as well?
President, Mounted Police Professional Association of Canada
Absolutely, those parts you're talking about are key.
Liberal
Nathaniel Erskine-Smith Liberal Beaches—East York, ON
Beyond the ones you made reference to in your brief, and beyond specific workplace safety conditions, would you take issue with any other exclusions?
President, Mounted Police Professional Association of Canada
I would say the core ones that are in the bill are problematic for us, because they all come back to us being able to do the job effectively. Why don't we look at the other police agencies and see what they're doing? What are their best practices? How do they...in terms of their equipment, such as with something as simple as the carbine? We don't have to reinvent the wheel. It's already been done.
Liberal
Nathaniel Erskine-Smith Liberal Beaches—East York, ON
Thanks very much.
Now, Mr. Banwarie and Mr. Keane, we have received your briefing. Mr. Merrifield and Mr. Sauvé, when you do present your written submissions, if you could be as specific as possible with respect to the exclusions you want to be on the bargaining table, it would be very helpful for our decision-making.
Mr. Sauvé, I understand there were broad consultations with respect to the response to the Supreme Court decision with the RCMP. Were there any consultations with respect to GECA?
Co-Chair, National Police Federation
Consultations, no; proposals, yes. Throughout the disability management process, yes, the management side of the table had proposed that they were looking to go and make a modification to GECA to remove our exclusion under the previous administration.
Again, we were unequivocally opposed to that. It never made it outside the room. It was not for publication. It was not for dissemination to our membership, because it was a closed discussion.
Liberal
Nathaniel Erskine-Smith Liberal Beaches—East York, ON
Now, you have stated that this matter should be deferred until the union has an opportunity to form, and this issue itself should be on the bargaining table. I understood that to be your submission here today. When you provide your written submissions to this committee....
I understand that's your primary submission, but it would also be helpful, in the event it's not going to happen, if you could provide specific amendments that you would like to see in GECA that would at the very least ameliorate some of the problems. Is that acceptable?
Liberal
Nathaniel Erskine-Smith Liberal Beaches—East York, ON
Thanks very much.
I would like to give the remainder of my time to Ms. Damoff, who may otherwise not have time to ask questions.
Liberal
Pam Damoff Liberal Oakville North—Burlington, ON
Thank you.
You mentioned that you've had preliminary discussions with Veterans Affairs about administering the workers' compensation side of things. How would the criteria be set, and what would be involved with getting that done? It's one thing to administer it, but as you mentioned, for operational stress and post-traumatic stress disorder it's different province by province. There are other issues as well that are different.
How would that be set up to then be administered by Veterans Affairs?
Co-Chair, National Police Federation
You're asking me to put the cart after the horse, are you?
Liberal
Pam Damoff Liberal Oakville North—Burlington, ON
I just wondered if you'd talked to them about that at all.
Co-Chair, National Police Federation
Veterans Affairs was going through a stage of transition at that time. We're going back about a year to a year and a half. We met with the deputy minister at the time, General Natynczyk. He still is the deputy minister. We spoke with him and his chief of staff at the time.
When we were talking about how we would cut off the...or if it was a good thing for RCMP members to fall under workers' compensation, if we would entertain discussions about going to the new Veterans Charter, which was part of a larger discussion, that moved and morphed into us sitting back and saying, “You know what? The smart thing to do, because you're involved already at the back end, and you're caring for our members once they retire through to death, is to get you involved at the front end.” Michel and the general were like, “That makes a lot of sense.”
Liberal
Pam Damoff Liberal Oakville North—Burlington, ON
But I guess the concern is that if you do that, you could go to the lowest bar, not the highest, right?
Co-Chair, National Police Federation
Well, you could, but obviously that was all preliminary. A lot of research has to be done, a lot of work has to be done, to figure out what the standard is.
Liberal
Pam Damoff Liberal Oakville North—Burlington, ON
I only have about 30 seconds left. Could you all give me your top three issues? If you were to change this bill, what would be the top three?
Co-Chair, National Police Federation
My top one is that clauses 40 and 42 should be struck.
Director, Mounted Police Association of Ontario
Balance to exclusions: there needs to be referencing directly in the bill that will permit collaboration between management and employees, both in enforceable committee meetings as well as things left to the collective bargaining table, to ensure proper working conditions.
Board Member, Mounted Police Professional Association of Canada
I couldn't give you three. I think what we've tried to say is that there are too many exclusions. It's not in the spirit of what the Supreme Court said.
We're not here just about pay. Our people are dying and getting injured, and nothing's happening. We need some protections for our folks with regard to staffing and a whole host of issues. Harassment is huge. It's an ongoing problem.
