Evidence of meeting #101 for Public Safety and National Security in the 42nd Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was cse.
A recording is available from Parliament.
Liberal
Harjit S. Sajjan Liberal Vancouver South, BC
One thing that Bill C-59 will do is to make sure we give CSE the right tools, the legislative ability to be able to leverage their technical ability to keep Canadians safe from all threats and emerging threats.
Conservative
Blaine Calkins Conservative Red Deer—Lacombe, AB
If we're talking about the abilities then, is there anywhere in the National Defence Act, in comparison to what we're doing here with Bill C-59, that the defence minister has to ask permission of any other minister, and the foreign affairs minister specifically, to carry out any operations?
That's kind of a yes or no. Is there anywhere in the Defence Act that says you need the permission of the foreign affairs minister to conduct any operations?
Liberal
Harjit S. Sajjan Liberal Vancouver South, BC
We as a government and I as the Minister of National Defence, when it comes to what we do overseas, for example—
Conservative
Blaine Calkins Conservative Red Deer—Lacombe, AB
I'm asking a very specific legislative question, Minister.
Conservative
Blaine Calkins Conservative Red Deer—Lacombe, AB
To your knowledge, is there any place in the Defence Act where it's legislated that you would need to consult or need the permission of another of your colleagues in order to carry out any lawful duties within the Defence Act?
Liberal
Harjit S. Sajjan Liberal Vancouver South, BC
I cannot conduct operations overseas without cabinet approval. Once I'm given my authority, that gives me the ability to be able to conduct—
Conservative
Blaine Calkins Conservative Red Deer—Lacombe, AB
That's just the MO of how business is operated. When we go to Bill C-59, part 3 says that you must consult with the Minister of Foreign Affairs.
My question to you is, has the Minister of Defence's role been diminished to being a junior minister to the Minister of Foreign Affairs? If so, why would we want to set that precedent?
Liberal
Harjit S. Sajjan Liberal Vancouver South, BC
I can assure you that when it comes to the actions that are taken by our government, we are given the appropriate authorities. This gives the Canadian Armed Forces and CSE the authority to act.
The other aspect of what our government has done is to make sure that we have fully funded our Canadian Armed Forces to be able to meet those needs.
More importantly, it gives CSE, within Bill C-59, the legislation to now be able to actively protect Canadians, whereas it couldn't before. Your previous government, at the time of Bill C-51, neglected to do that.
Liberal
Pam Damoff Liberal Oakville North—Burlington, ON
Thank you, Chair.
Minister, it's wonderful to have you here at the public safety committee, so welcome, and welcome back to the officials who are here.
Bill C-59 allows you to conduct active cybersecurity operations against hostile foreign entities. We had some discussion when your officials were here last time about the global infrastructure. I have concerns about how the data of Canadians could get swept up in that, for example, if I'm on holidays in London, England, and you're conducting an operation and I get caught up in that.
You're dealing with strictly foreign entities. What safeguards do we have in place to ensure that you continue to be dealing with strictly foreign entities, as opposed to Canadian citizens?
Liberal
Harjit S. Sajjan Liberal Vancouver South, BC
That's a really good question. When I became minister, I was walked through the actual process that we currently have now. It is extremely robust.
We do have a responsibility. If information is accidentally collected, there is a very strict process that is taken. More importantly, the current process that the CSE commissioner goes through to make sure that information....
I want to make sure I get this right, so I'm going to pass that on to you, Greta.
Chief, Communications Security Establishment
Thank you, Minister.
In terms of active and defensive cyber-operations, which I believe was the nature of your question, this legislation, the proposed law, says that CSE will not be able to direct active or defensive cyber-operations against Canadians, against any person in Canada, or at the global information infrastructure in Canada. It's part of the legal framework we'd be operating under.
In addition, as I mentioned before, these operations would require senior-level approvals and, as the minister has mentioned, review by the new national security and intelligence review committee and also the committee of parliamentarians that has been put in place.
By law, the activities we would undertake could not be directed at Canadians or Canadian infrastructure, or anyone in Canada.
Liberal
Pam Damoff Liberal Oakville North—Burlington, ON
I guess that's where I have the disconnect, though, because how do you know they're Canadians? When you're dealing with the cyberworld, how do you know who is a Canadian versus who is foreign?
I'm not an expert on the cyberworld to any extent, but you're not dealing with a physical person; you're dealing with an entity in the cyberworld. How do you know whether that's a Canadian or not?
Chief, Communications Security Establishment
Shelly, do you want to talk a little about it, more from a collection perspective?
Shelly Bruce Associate Chief, Communications Security Establishment
If you think of an active cyber-operation or a defensive cyber-operation as a plan that has been pulled together, it doesn't happen spontaneously. A lot of research and a lot of analysis have to go into getting to the point where you have an idea of what you could do online in a defensive or disruptive action.
The information that leads up to that plan, that informs that plan, is going to be the information that is pulled together through our foreign intelligence mandate and by understanding the players and the infrastructure that are involved. It could be from our cyber-defence mandate and understanding how the Internet works and which servers are configured in which way and how they interact.
It would have to be a very well-informed, thought-through plan in which you'd look at downstream implications. The intelligence commissioner is working at the beginning of those processes and helping to ensure that the ministerial authorizations that are allowing us to gather that information are sound, reasonable, and proportionate, in addition to all of the measures that go into it. We have protections for privacy in that space as well.
Liberal
Pam Damoff Liberal Oakville North—Burlington, ON
I have only about a minute left, and I want to get in another quick question.
Minister, in the last budget there was a fairly significant investment in the national cybersecurity strategy. Having the legislation is one aspect, but I'm wondering if you can speak to how those kinds of investments will assist in the work you're doing.
Liberal
Harjit S. Sajjan Liberal Vancouver South, BC
They're absolutely critical. The right investments are going to allow us not only to operate at the proper capacity and have the cyber centre of excellence but, more importantly, to stay at the cutting edge of technology. That aspect is so important.
There's one thing I tried to stress early on. It's about our people. You can have the best technology, but it's actually developed by people. I want to stress that the people who are at CSE....
You won that award again, right?
Liberal
Harjit S. Sajjan Liberal Vancouver South, BC
It's one of the top employers in Canada again.
This ability to track the best is absolutely amazing. This is one of the reasons we've been able to stay at the cutting edge, but it requires research and development and the right network to do so. This investment is the step that's going to keep us at the cutting edge.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal John McKay
Thank you, Ms. Damoff.
I could actually see the clock as three minutes slow for Mr. Dubé if he wished to pursue his final question.
Liberal
Harjit S. Sajjan Liberal Vancouver South, BC
We're looking at the clock, but that's the official clock, is it?
Liberal
The Chair Liberal John McKay
Yes, well, there's the official clock and then there's the clock that I see.
Mr. Dubé, you can finish off your question.