Public Safety Committee on March 22nd, 2018

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

At this point, Minister and Mr. Motz, the phrasing of your current question has almost nothing to do with Bill C-59. I'll just point out that we've not yet passed this as legislation, so it's not—

[Glen Motz, Conservative, Medicine Hat—Cardston—Warner, AB]

Fair enough.

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

With that immense guidance from your chair, I would ask you to continue by asking another question.

[Glen Motz, Conservative, Medicine Hat—Cardston—Warner, AB]

In your opinion, Mr. Minister, who is the top person for national security in this country? Is it you, as Minister of Defence? Is it Minister Goodale? Is it the Prime Minister? Who, in your estimation, is the top person for national security?

[Harjit S. Sajjan, Liberal, Vancouver South, BC]

When it comes to national security, this is one of the reasons why in a government we have things that are also.... For example, the Minister of Public Safety is responsible for the security within Canada. That's why I, as the Minister of National Defence, look at foreign threats. This makes sure that there is a separation, but at the same time, on request, we can provide the right level of support.

For example, with forest fires, we can provide a domestic response if there's a threat, if that's needed. If there's terrorism, I need to make sure that our special forces, our capabilities, are there if needed, upon request, inside Canada.

This is something that I look at very seriously every single day, and it's a responsibility that is shared by me, Minister Goodale, and also the Minister of Foreign Affairs. We're constantly working together. More importantly, our officials constantly work together to make sure that we keep Canadians safe, and that's something that we take extremely seriously.

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

Be very brief, please.

[Glen Motz, Conservative, Medicine Hat—Cardston—Warner, AB]

In your testimony, then, you're saying that you, the Minister of Foreign Affairs, and the Minister of Public Safety are the only ones who.... The buck stops with you three with respect to national security and not with the Prime Minister or anyone else.

[Harjit S. Sajjan, Liberal, Vancouver South, BC]

When it comes to security, it's the government's responsibility to keep Canadians safe, and that's exactly what we do.

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

Thank you, Mr. Motz.

Thank you, Minister.

Mr. Fragiskatos, you have five minutes. Go ahead, please.

[Peter Fragiskatos, Liberal, London North Centre, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you to the Minister and to the officials for being here today.

My questions will focus on Bill C-59 and cybersecurity.

First of all, Minister, you said in your comments when you opened things that cyber-operations “would be subject to strict statutory prohibitions against directing these operations at Canadians, any person in Canada, or the global information infrastructure in Canada, and would require a robust approval process.” To me, that's very much in line with democratic principles, but could you speak to the importance of that, to ensuring that when we have legislation, when we're talking about CSE and its powers, that those powers are consistent with democratic principles?

[Harjit S. Sajjan, Liberal, Vancouver South, BC]

Absolutely, and in fact, this is extremely fundamental. I was trying to address that in the answer that I gave about my responsibility with regard to CSE and the military's focus on foreign threats, and that's where CSE's at.

However, with what CSE currently has and with Bill C-59, we'll have additional ability to provide support for other agencies with judicial authorization. I think what's extremely important is making sure that we as a government leverage all the right resources within our government and within the laws. However, at the same time—and I want to stress this immensely, because Canadians expect this—we must have a process in place that respects privacy and transparency. This is something that hasn't happened before. More importantly, we are the last Five Eyes nation to finally come up to that transparency level.

Greta, do you want to add anything to that?

[Peter Fragiskatos, Liberal, London North Centre, ON]

By all means, go ahead.

[Greta Bossenmaier]

If I take your question, particularly around the foreign cyber-operations, active cyber-operations, and defensive cyber-operations, I'll say that it's very clear in the legislation. There are two pieces that I would draw folks' attention to. One is the strict approval processes that would need to be put in place. Active cyber-operations would require the approval of both the Minister of National Defence and the Minister of Foreign Affairs, given that these are operations that would be happening outside of Canada, not in Canada, so there would be Foreign Affairs implications or considerations as well. That's on the approvals side.

Also, in terms of the limitations, there are very clear limitations as to what an active or a defensive cyber-operation could entail. CSE would be prohibited, for example, from directing its active cyber-operations at Canadians, at any person in Canada, or at the global information infrastructure. It would have to be sure that it is not causing death or bodily harm, or wilfully obstructing justice or democracy. There would be significant, serious, senior-level approvals in addition to very clear limitations on what those activities could be.

[Peter Fragiskatos, Liberal, London North Centre, ON]

Thank you very much, Minister.

I want to ask you about your assessment of the current threat environment that we face. Traditionally, threats to national security have been understood in terms of states posing a primary threat, rogue states in particular, but non-state actors have now come onto the scene, in particular, terrorist movements. Now we're talking about cybersecurity. All of these issues exist in the threat environment. Where does cybersecurity rank for you in terms of risks to our national security?

[Harjit S. Sajjan, Liberal, Vancouver South, BC]

In the overall context, we have to look at current threats, threats that are potentially emerging, and what we can predict as future threats. This is the responsibility of the government, to make sure that we have the right resources to be able to deal with threats today and tomorrow.

We've been dealing with non-state actors for some time, as well as with state actors.

Cyber is a significant concern, but I also want to say that, because we have done extremely well in Canada, CSE has the ability, the expertise, to give Canadians the assurance of tremendous safety when it comes to cyber. However, as you know, with technology, we need to stay at the cutting edge.

My bigger concern, I'll be honest with you, with nations like Russia, is how they can take cyber and what we call hybrid warfare, such as with what's happening in Ukraine, and try to manipulate and influence populations. That is a concern and not just strictly from a government perspective. We have to make sure we educate our citizens and our media. We've noticed this, and we are actively engaged in making sure that we speak with the right nations who have good experience with this, and that's the reason we're making the right investments in the right area. We're looking at the really tough threats, but at the same time, we have to be looking at the emerging threats out there as well.

[Peter Fragiskatos, Liberal, London North Centre, ON]

Thank you, Minister.

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

Thank you, Mr. Fragiskatos.

Mr. Calkins, you have five minutes. Go ahead, please.

[Blaine Calkins, Conservative, Red Deer—Lacombe, AB]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Minister, thank you for being here today. We truly appreciate it.

This is just a point of quick clarification. At any point in time, in your role as Minister of Defence, have you ever held back, requested, or asked that any officials, from either your area of expertise or anywhere else within the Government of Canada not testify before any of the standing committees before the House of Commons?

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

Could you tie that to Bill C-59?

[Blaine Calkins, Conservative, Red Deer—Lacombe, AB]

The Minister of National Defence needs to consult with the Minister of Foreign Affairs, under part 3 of Bill C-59, and will now be junior in that role if the act does come to pass, and will need the advice of the Minister of Foreign Affairs to make decisions. I'm asking right now, given that link, whether he has been advised by the Minister of Foreign Affairs per se. Has he had any conversations with any of his ministerial colleagues? Has he had any conversations with any of his colleagues who are members of the legislative body and not members of the executive with regard to who should or shouldn't appear before a standing committee of the House of Commons?

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

Bearing in mind the issue of national security here, I'll let you answer that in the absence—

[Harjit S. Sajjan, Liberal, Vancouver South, BC]

I'm sorry. My policing experience of listening to how people talk and question is coming in here.

I see where you're trying to go with this, and I can assure you, when it comes to the Minister of Foreign Affairs and me, we have a very good relationship when it comes to looking at threats. That's what Bill C-59 is focused on, making sure that we keep Canadians safe but at the same time give Canadians the confidence that their privacy is going to be looked after. More importantly, finally we have CSE being given the ability to leverage their expertise. That wasn't there before, especially when it came to Bill C-51.

[Blaine Calkins, Conservative, Red Deer—Lacombe, AB]

But my actual question was whether you had ever advised anybody not to speak to department officials. It's a non-threatening question. I would have assumed that your answer would have been no, that you'd never done that, but I didn't get that answer, which is unfortunate.

Given your responsibilities for the Communications Security Establishment, to your knowledge, what threat, if any, do so-called rogue elements of the Indian government present to the reputation of the Government of Canada?

[Harjit S. Sajjan, Liberal, Vancouver South, BC]

When it comes to threats, as I said, on a daily basis we look at threats from around the world. We keep monitoring on a regular basis and making sure that we mitigate anything. I work very collaboratively with Minister Goodale on this, and more importantly, our officials work very collaboratively on this to make sure we keep Canadians safe.

[Blaine Calkins, Conservative, Red Deer—Lacombe, AB]

You gave me a very general answer to a very specific question, so I'll ask the question again. Given your responsibilities for the Communications Security Establishment, what threat, if any, do so-called rogue elements of the Indian government specifically present to the reputation of the Government of Canada?