Public Safety Committee on April 25th, 2018

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

Ladies and gentlemen, let's get started. The meeting is called to order.

We anticipate we will be interrupted at some time in the not too distant future.

(On clause 108)

My notes tell me that we left off at clause 108. There were two amendments, NDP-64 and PV-24. I stand to be corrected by the clerk, but I believe amendment NDP-64 has been dealt with; it's out of order. Therefore, we have amendment PV-24, and this one is also out of order.

That would mean we have only clause 108.

(Clause 108 agreed to on division)

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

That brings us up to amendment NDP-65, which is not in order. Amendment PV-25 is gone too.

That means we have LIB-44 up, and I'm looking at Ms. Damoff.

[Pam Damoff, Liberal, Oakville North—Burlington, ON]

Mr. Chair, this was actually dealt with at LIB-42, I believe, so I'll withdraw it.

(On clause 109)

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

NDP-66 is out of order and PV-26 is out of order, so we're on clause 109, on amendment CPC-23.

I'm assuming that is either Mr. Motz or—

[Glen Motz, Conservative, Medicine Hat—Cardston—Warner, AB]

Just a second, Mr. Chair, until I get to my reference, please

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

Come on, Mr. Motz, we were making tremendous progress here with matters that had either been withdrawn, dealt with, or were out of order. You're slowing us right down.

[Glen Motz, Conservative, Medicine Hat—Cardston—Warner, AB]

I apologize for that, Mr. Chair. You know my willingness to be co-operative as much as possible.

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

I know.

[Glen Motz, Conservative, Medicine Hat—Cardston—Warner, AB]

Thank you.

This amendment CPC-23, after line 125 on page 113, will add to clause 109 proposed new subsections 40.2(1) and (2), which read:

40.2 (1) Within the first four months after the commencement of each fiscal year, the Service shall submit to the Minister a report on the administrative costs of meeting the requirements imposed on the Service under the National Security and Intelligence Review Agency Act and the National Security and Intelligence Committee of Parliamentarians Act for the preceding fiscal year.

(2) The Minister shall, within 15 days after a report is submitted under subsection (1), publish the report on its Internet site.

It's similar to an amendment that we proposed, I believe it was as recent as yesterday, Mr. Chair.

The reason this amendment is brought forward is to address the issues raised by some national security experts. They raised the concern that the administrative costs for NSIRA and the parliamentary committee, and this whole business, might have a negative impact on the actual costs, or the money spent on national security as opposed to the administrative costs with regard to this.

That's all we're asking for. At a time when the world is more aware and has a heightened sensitivity to the risks that are present, we think that money allocated to national security should be spent there, and that we have a costing of the actual administrative costs.

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

Thank you, Mr. Motz.

On debate, we have Ms. Damoff.

[Pam Damoff, Liberal, Oakville North—Burlington, ON]

Chair, the annual report required by this amendment would represent a new administrative burden for CSIS. During estimates, parliamentarians are free to ask questions regarding the impact of national security review, so we're not going to support this amendment.

[Glen Motz, Conservative, Medicine Hat—Cardston—Warner, AB]

I'm disappointed.

[Matthew Dubé, NDP, Beloeil—Chambly, QC]

I just want to reiterate the point I made on this amendment, or on a similar one in the previous meeting, that I believe this could go a multitude of ways. There could be a burden on the agencies as well from the lack of response time from the agencies. At the end of the day, I think it creates a problem in terms of trying to undermine the credibility of these agencies as they're getting up and going.

There's no such thing, in my opinion, as an administrative cost to accountability and review and oversight mechanisms.

[Glen Motz, Conservative, Medicine Hat—Cardston—Warner, AB]

You might remember the testimony of Dr. Leuprecht, Mr. Boisvert, as well as Mr. Fadden, and based on other conversations our office has had, with CSIS providing to Parliament and the minister an accounting of that administrative cost, Canadians will have a better idea of actually how much the government has cut from national security and could be spending on administrative costs.

In terms of compliance with the requirements within this particular piece of legislation, we don't know what the costs will be. It's never been factored in. I think it's responsible to know exactly what those administrative costs might be, moving forward.

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

Is there further debate?

[Pierre Paul-Hus, Conservative, Charlesbourg—Haute-Saint-Charles, QC]

We'd like a recorded vote.

(Amendment negatived: nays 6; yeas 2)

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

That leaves no further amendments for clause 109.

May I group clauses 109, 110, and 111 for one vote?

[Pierre Paul-Hus, Conservative, Charlesbourg—Haute-Saint-Charles, QC]

Mr. Chair, I often find that I do not have the time to react. I have to wait until the interpretation has been provided. In a lot of cases, you start speaking again before I have had the time to jump in.

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

I have the same problem.

[Pierre Paul-Hus, Conservative, Charlesbourg—Haute-Saint-Charles, QC]

I know.

Can you wait two or three seconds so that I can react?

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

Okay.

[Pierre Paul-Hus, Conservative, Charlesbourg—Haute-Saint-Charles, QC]

I am not listening to you in English. I am listening to the French interpretation.

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

I am in the same situation.

[Pierre Paul-Hus, Conservative, Charlesbourg—Haute-Saint-Charles, QC]

Okay.

So what is the situation with the vote?

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

Can I group the votes and do three votes at one time?