Public Safety Committee on May 7th, 2018

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

It's 3:30 p.m. I call this meeting to order.

We're fortunate to have Commissioner Lucki here this afternoon.

We are waiting for Minister Goodale. Minister Goodale frequently appears before this committee. I think he does it because it's a warm and friendly committee. I'm sure he'll come along and more formally and properly introduce you, but meanwhile why don't we start with you, Commissioner—and magically, timing is everything.

As I said, Minister Goodale is so enthusiastic about appearing before this committee that he's going to appear not once, not twice, but three times this week.

[Ralph Goodale, Liberal, Minister of Public Safety and Emergency Preparedness]

That may wear out my enthusiasm.

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

That may wear out your enthusiasm, but I know it won't change your opinion about this being a warm and friendly committee, Minister. With that, I'll ask you to introduce Commissioner Lucki, and we'll proceed.

[Ralph Goodale, Liberal, Regina—Wascana, SK]

Thank you, Mr. Chairman and members of the committee. I am very glad to greet all of you today on the traditional territory of the Algonquin people and for the specific purpose of introducing to you and to Parliament Ms. Brenda Lucki, the new and 24th commissioner of the Royal Canadian Mounted Police.

The Prime Minister announced Ms. Lucki's selection as commissioner designate back in March, following an extensive and professional search to find a successor to Bob Paulson, who retired last summer. As the baton or, as one might say more appropriately in the Mounties, the guidon is passed to Commissioner Lucki, I want to express Canada's appreciation to former commissioner Paulson for his years of service. I also want to thank Dan Dubeau, former Acting Commissioner, who very professionally took charge of the top leadership role in the force while the search process was completed.

Former New Brunswick Premier and former Canadian ambassador to the United States, the Honourable Frank McKenna, chaired that process. It was high calibre, independent, and non-partisan, generating an impressive list of strong and well-qualified individuals for the government's consideration.

For the record, the McKenna search committee consisted of former acting RCMP Commissioner Beverley Busson; former Deputy Commissioner Marianne Ryan; Lac La Ronge first nation Chief Tammy Cook-Searson; former Winnipeg police Chief Devon Clunis; prominent labour leader Barbara Byers; workplace standards expert and adjudicator Manuelle Oudar; National Security and Intelligence Adviser Daniel Jean; Public Safety Deputy Minister Malcolm Brown; and, Status of Women Deputy Minister Gina Wilson.

They worked diligently and produced a very strong set of recommendations for my consideration and then ultimately a decision by the Prime Minister. I want to thank the committee for their excellent efforts and results.

Commissioner Lucki began her new duties on April 16 as the first female permanent commanding officer of the RCMP. In this role, she will lead one of Canada's oldest, most prestigious, and most important institutions. A recognized Canadian icon, the roots of the RCMP stretch back to the original Dominion Police Force in 1868 and the North-West Mounted Police founded in May 1873.

Brenda Lucki brings with her a wealth of front-line experience and expertise in keeping communities safe and secure, and a long and distinguished career as a proven leader in RCMP divisions all across the country. Her work has also extended to the United Nations in the former Yugoslavia, and in Haiti, where she helped train and select police units for the UN civilian police mission.

Most recently, she has served as commanding officer of Depot Division, the RCMP's training academy in Regina. This is highly relevant, because the recruitment, training, and retention of highly qualified police officers and civilians who reflect the rich diversity of Canada, the best ethical standards, and the most modern skills will be vital for the future of the force.

The new commissioner obviously has a lot on her plate. To be clear about the government's objectives, for the first time in history we have made public the mandate letter given to Commissioner Lucki. It is now available to all Canadians online.

We are looking to the commissioner to reinforce the very best of the RCMP while she also leads the organization through a period of transformational change that will modernize and reform its culture. This will involve fundamental issues related to structure, governance, and human resource policies; a comprehensive response to the recent reviews done by Sheila Fraser and the Civilian Review and Complaints Commission; an ongoing assessment of operational priorities and the allocation of resources; and, the arrival of a brand new collective bargaining system.

One critical priority is a safe and healthy workplace. Promoting gender equity, confronting long-standing issues like harassment and bullying, and responding to PTSI and other mental health issues will all continue to be of urgent importance, and the same must be said for the RCMP's leadership role in advancing reconciliation with indigenous peoples.

The mandate letter touches on all of these priorities and a number of other things too.

The goal is effective policing that succeeds in keeping Canadians safe, while safeguarding their rights and freedoms in a manner befitting a Canadian icon that earns and enjoys the trust, the confidence, and the enthusiastic support of the people they serve. To be clear, the commissioner herself has the control and management of the RCMP and all matters connected to the force. The mandate letter does not in any way impinge on the RCMP's essential independence.

I look forward to a productive and collaborative working relationship with Commissioner Lucki. Her leadership and strategic advice will be critical to the public safety and national security policies and actions of the Government of Canada.

Commissioner, welcome, and congratulations. The floor is yours.

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

Thank you, Minister.

[Commissioner Brenda Lucki, Royal Canadian Mounted Police]

Thank you.

Good afternoon, Mr. Chairman and committee members. I was told this was the friendliest committee, so I'm happy to start off here.

I would like to express, first of all, how sorry I was to hear about the sudden loss of your colleague and your friend, MP Gord Brown. On behalf of everyone in the RCMP, I'd like to extend my sincerest condolences.

I have truly been given a gift. It's the opportunity to lead my organization to a bright and new future. With three weeks under my belt as the new commissioner, and armed with a mandate letter outlining those opportunities and expectations for the RCMP, my sleeves are rolled up and I'm ready for the task at hand.

I would like to talk to you today about what I see as three central elements of our way forward: people, community and the opportunities and challenges on the road to our 150th anniversary.

An organization is truly the sum of its people. The RCMP of today is made up of almost 30,000 individuals who joined Canada's national police service to make a difference in their communities. Over 18,000 of those are called upon to put themselves in harm's way, and yet another 12,000 work tirelessly behind the scenes to support them and make our front-line operations possible.

Canada is a diverse and evolving society made up of people from many different backgrounds with the same aspiration for peace and prosperity. I want all Canadians to see themselves in the RCMP—a modern RCMP. We are most effective when we are reflective of our community.

Diversity in our workforce not only keeps us relevant and in tune with Canadians, it gives us a diversity of skills and experiences that help us to advance and innovate.

As inclusion leads us to broader perspectives, respect must also be front and centre, both respect for each other and respect for each and every group and individual we interact with. By acting honourably, professionally, and compassionately without letting biases or assumptions cloud our judgment, we will in return earn the respect of our colleagues and those we serve.

Respect, of course, leaves no room for harassment. I cannot and I will not accept this kind of behaviour and will do everything in my power to address it. We will get at the root causes of bullying, discrimination, and harassment wherever it exists, and we will continue to build our programs to identify, eliminate, and prevent this corrosive behaviour from undermining the important work that we do.

Respect thrives where people are healthy. Over the past several years, we have launched many new programs and services aimed at supporting the health and well-being of our employees.

As part of our mental health strategy, we will continue to roll out readiness training, peer support networks, and employee assistance services that will grow and evolve. We recently introduced a disability management and accommodation program to support our injured members' recovery. It is extremely important that we get our members back to work as valued and productive employees of the RCMP as soon as possible.

Finally, our RCMP requires ethical leadership to support and empower our employees so they can go above and beyond in their work. These important steps forward only happen when every single leader at every level models the attitudes and behaviours we expect of those around us. We will develop these leaders, encourage those who demonstrate what we value, and support them with modern and accountable governance structures.

My second area of focus is the communities we serve from coast to coast to coast. The concerns of rural Canadians have been prominent in recent years. Technology and accessibility bring more issues that were once considered big city problems to our rural areas. Communities that were once insulated from some of these threats are now struggling to cope with the impacts of rising crime rates, potent and dangerous drugs, and the impact of fraud, Internet-based fraud, and exploitation.

We have responded, and will continue to respond, with innovation to better protect our citizens and our employees. Recent examples include new techniques for safely training police dogs to detect fentanyl and other dangerous substances, issuing naloxone to front-line members, and new cybercrime strategies.

We also work day to day with the most vulnerable people in our communities. Our first responders are called upon to deal with complex situations where mental health, poverty, addiction, and domestic violence call for extraordinary judgment and restraint.

We will continue to modernize the training our members receive to deal with these often volatile situations, and we look to our partners in the health sector and other areas to build a stronger network to respond to these critical needs.

For many years during my service, I have worked with indigenous communities and know first-hand the value and the importance of reconciliation with our first nations, Métis, and Inuit peoples.

The RCMP has worked with and among indigenous people for its entire history. We have been partners and helpers; however, we must also acknowledge the role we played in some of the darker periods.

We will continue to work to understand and appreciate the complex and important relationship between indigenous communities and Canadians, and use that understanding to increase the trust in order to serve the needs of all with fairness and respect.

My philosophy is simple: make every community better than what it was when you got there.

Across the country, thousands of our employees do exactly that by responding to calls for help, by solving crimes, by engaging with young people in our hockey rinks and in our schools.

When we get to know the community in which we work and come to understand each other, we can start to build trust. We will continue to be a presence that Canadians can turn to for help with the confidence that we will be fair, transparent, and accountable.

To meet the needs and expectations of Canadians, we need to be a modern and agile police service, capable of adapting quickly to an ever-changing policing environment.

As our society changes, Canadians are presented with ever wider career options. Policing is not for everyone, so the challenge of recruiting and training people with the right aptitudes and outlook is a growing one. We must address vacancies and grow our numbers to meet the needs of our communities, and address the pressures on our employees.

These pressures also include a pay and benefits package. I look forward to working on these issues and others with new bargaining agents, who will be active advocates for our members and employees.

In order to tell this story, we must continue to develop business intelligence systems and analytics, so we can clearly demonstrate the impact we are having on the safety of our communities. Using yesterday's technology is just not an option.

Since becoming commissioner just a few short weeks ago, I have gained an even broader perspective on the scope and complexity of our institution. The more I learn, the more I see the potential to build upon our strengths to make positive change, and I see many opportunities to earn the trust and respect of Canadians.

I believe it is important to honour and learn from our past while modernizing for the future. I am really excited for the work ahead with our employees, our partners, our communities, and yourselves as we travel the road together to 150.

Thank you, and I welcome your questions.

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

Thank you, Commissioner, and thank you, Minister.

Mr. Picard, you have seven minutes.

[Michel Picard, Liberal, Montarville, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Commissioner Lucki, congratulations on your appointment, and thank you for accepting the mandate, which may be a gift to you, but it is also a huge gift for us.

For a number of years, you have been, in a sense, a witness—an involved one—to a way of being, living and behaving at the RCMP. You now have the mandate of leading the RCMP, and your first objective addresses the whole issue of fighting harassment.

What have you learned from your years of experience, and on which aspects will you be basing your strategy to achieve the cultural shift we are all hoping for?

[Commr Brenda Lucki]

First, I must say that it took a lot of courage for all the women who told their stories during the lawsuit filed by Janet Merlo and Linda Gillis Davidson. I know that it is no easy task for those concerned, but it is paramount. It is indeed sad to realize that such experiences need to be heard in order to reveal that harassment exists within the RCMP.

It is important that we learn from these experiences and implement policies to ensure that this never happens again in the RCMP. One incident of harassment is one too many. I think that everyone in the RCMP should assume this responsibility. It's one thing to take responsibility for oneself, but it requires even more courage to take responsibility for someone else. This problem is everyone's responsibility.

[Michel Picard, Liberal, Montarville, QC]

You will lead what is, from my standpoint, probably one of the best institutions in Canada. It's a traditional institution. Habits have become a way of working, and harassment, from my standpoint, is a bit more, or I should say, is a lot more and what women went through.... It's a tough environment. I will include in the harassment the bullying and questionable behaviour.

I would like to hear from you about.... Allow me to say it this way: how will a lady tell the guys how to behave?

[Commr Brenda Lucki]

We do it all the time. It's part of our makeup. Ask my husband.

I think actions speak louder than words. We can say all we want about harassment, but we need to demonstrate that behaviour, and it comes from the top. If you permit something, you're promoting it. We have to show that we don't permit those behaviours.

My predecessor, commissioner Paulson, used to say that if he were to walk into this room today and light up a cigarette, there wouldn't be one person in the room who wouldn't say something. We need that exact same response for when somebody does something inappropriate. We can't hide it. We need to face it head-on.

[Michel Picard, Liberal, Montarville, QC]

In another matter, I had the great pleasure to work with IMET in Montreal for a few years. I see it growing and evolving, and I read recently that they are hiring more professionals from the civil side. Is this mix of professional knowledge and expertise along with traditional police officers particular to IMET, or is it part of the view of the RCMP for the future to have a—I'll use your words—more “modern and agile” police force?

[Commr Brenda Lucki]

It's not just for IMET. We have to look at every unit that we provide services for to ensure we have the right person doing the right job. If that includes a specialized service, we have to look at the particular skill sets we need and we have to ask ourselves whether that person needs to go through six months of general policing and carry a gun, or if they can come from a different sector.

We use those people in areas such as cybercrime, because police officers are not the best with computers. I'm probably the best example of that one. We need to get the best person we can for the job, so we want to look at civilianization in every type of work we do. Sometimes it will work; sometimes it won't. But definitely, when we look at the front-line policing, we have to make sure they are on mandate as well. We don't want somebody who's a full, gun-carrying member doing something that we could better utilize on the front line.

[Michel Picard, Liberal, Montarville, QC]

The status of the RCMP civilian members has changed, or will change, under the new plan. The addition of external professionals will bring a new dynamic to a team of police officers who are used to doing police work. As of now, police officers themselves will be able to choose a union to represent them. These are three new dynamics.

How do you think people will react to this new agreement on unionization?

What are the main points you would like to focus on, given this new balance of power between a group represented by a union and your position as commissioner?

[Commr Brenda Lucki]

In my opinion, the group that will represent us will have a specific aptitude, that of knowing our agency. We will have to work in concert with this group, or else the members will lose in the end. We have to sort out many issues with the union. We will have to address one issue at a time. Our members have many concerns, such as compensation, working hours, uniforms and equipment.

In any case, we must maintain good working relations, or else the members will lose in the end.

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

Thank you, Mr. Picard. I hate to be a hawk about time, but members get after me after a while.

Mr. Paul-Hus, you have seven minutes.

[Pierre Paul-Hus, Conservative, Charlesbourg—Haute-Saint-Charles, QC]

Ms. Lucki, congratulations on your appointment.

You are continuing a wonderful career. Looking at your resumé, I realized that you became a member of the RCMP in 1986. That made me reflect a bit. I see that we are currently focusing a lot on the problems the RCMP must face with harassment and bullying. I can't help but draw a parallel with my own experience. I joined the Canadian Armed Forces in 1987. Back then, the soldiers' mentality, way of working and behaviour were similar to those of police officers. Today, 31 years later, I ask myself questions. There were many problems back then, but nobody talked about them. Today, however, everyone is talking about them, which is normal. We cannot accept such behaviour.

Given that you have been on the force for 30 years, I would like to ask you whether, in your recollection, there has really been a change in behaviour, or relations between officers, or whether the situation has stayed the same, yet now we no longer tolerate this behaviour in any way—which is what we're aiming for.

[Commr Brenda Lucki]

There have certainly been major changes. Our society no longer has the same amount of tolerance. When I became a member of the RCMP, some people would very often drive while drunk. This is no longer tolerated today. I believe it was in 1994 that we became one of the first government agencies to adopt a policy on harassment. I'm not saying that everything was all good back then, but many things have changed, specifically our society's tolerance level. We have therefore changed our ways.

Our members don't come into work every day telling themselves that they will behave as harassers for the day. Nowadays, it's a lot more subtle, to the point where it's invisible. Back then, it was far more obvious, and we didn't have any policies in place to deal with these issues. I'm not saying that it was acceptable, but it was the way things were.

[Pierre Paul-Hus, Conservative, Charlesbourg—Haute-Saint-Charles, QC]

Okay.

Some soldiers believe that their work often has a somewhat macho component to it. Some complained a bit about how they could no longer use language that would satisfy their need to further express their manliness. Clearly, we can no longer tolerate this nowadays.

For the last two years, you headed the RCMP Academy, which trains recruits. Are the young recruits, who plan on becoming RCMP officers, already aware of this new approach upon their arrival?

I imagine that the older officers had quite different experiences, but, in your opinion, what do the young people nowadays believe when they start their training at the RCMP Academy?

[Commr Brenda Lucki]

I find their way of interacting with each other to be very different. They are more tolerant, more inclusive and more respectful. It's still a difficult job. This kind of work doesn't always bring out the best in people. It's hard to be at our best when we come into the office after a 12-hour shift.

However, we explain that to the new recruits. We emphasize this point a lot in the cadet training program and at Depot Division. We want to make sure we change their way of thinking. We let them know that disrespectful behaviour will in no way be tolerated.

[Pierre Paul-Hus, Conservative, Charlesbourg—Haute-Saint-Charles, QC]

You were given a mandate letter. I believe this is the first time that a Minister of Public Safety has handed a mandate letter to an RCMP Commissioner.

I would like to know your thoughts on this. In the letter, the minister clearly says that you will keep your independence as a police officer, but, on the other hand, you are, in a way, taking orders from the government.

Is there anything in the mandate letter that makes you uncomfortable?

[Commr Brenda Lucki]

Not at all.

I'm not saying that because you're sitting next to me.

It's really a reflection on our opportunities, and that's exactly what I was expecting. It's also a reflection on the strong support we get from the government, particularly from the Prime Minister and the minister. I believe that this is a roadmap for us, the future and our 150th anniversary.

[Pierre Paul-Hus, Conservative, Charlesbourg—Haute-Saint-Charles, QC]

Great, thank you.

I have time left for one more question, on the problem of the migrants at the border.

The RCMP is deploying a lot of resources in the Saint-Bernard-de-Lacolle sector. Officers on the ground are being asked both to arrest migrants and to help them. How do your officers feel about this? Do you have enough resources to manage this flood of migrants? Clearly, this problem will persist.

[Commr Brenda Lucki]

Our goal is to place migrants, when they enter Canada, in a secure environment in line with the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms. I think that we are doing good work on this front. We're using technology and we're working with our partners in the United States. To date, it's been going well.

[Pierre Paul-Hus, Conservative, Charlesbourg—Haute-Saint-Charles, QC]

Are you talking about the technology used when they arrive?