Public Safety Committee on May 8th, 2018

[Glen Motz, Conservative, Medicine Hat—Cardston—Warner, AB]

Between sections 101 and 105—I don't remember exactly which one because there are a couple—a firearms officer is authorized under the Firearms Act to enter onto any property where he or she believes there are firearms in abundance, more than 10, or to check records, to check with compliance with the Firearms Act. Is that correct?

[Paula Clarke]

It is correct that the CFO has the right to review business records to ensure compliance with the regulatory requirements of the Firearms Act. However, if they want to enter the property to inspect, they do have to have reasonable grounds to believe, and that would require traditional authorization.

[Glen Motz, Conservative, Medicine Hat—Cardston—Warner, AB]

It doesn't say that in the act.

[Paula Clarke]

Yes, it's at section 104 of the Firearms Act, which is the provision that deals with “inspection of a dwelling-house”.

[Glen Motz, Conservative, Medicine Hat—Cardston—Warner, AB]

That's a dwelling-house, but not specifically a business.

[Paula Clarke]

No, it's not specifically a business. Sorry, I should clarify that.

[Glen Motz, Conservative, Medicine Hat—Cardston—Warner, AB]

That's what I was referring to.

We know that in some circumstances a firearms officer is also a police officer.

[Paula Clarke]

In some circumstances, yes.

[Glen Motz, Conservative, Medicine Hat—Cardston—Warner, AB]

How does that marry with what the minister told us this morning, that in all circumstances—in every circumstance, I believe his words were—police can only access these records with judicial authorization?

[Paula Clarke]

If, during the normal regulatory inspections, a firearms officer starts to believe that he has come across evidence of a criminal nature, then it would convert to a criminal investigation and the normal legal standards that apply for such an investigation would come into effect.

[Glen Motz, Conservative, Medicine Hat—Cardston—Warner, AB]

That's fair enough.

There will be a requirement from this new legislation to obtain a reference number anytime there is a transference of a firearm from a transferor or to a transferee. How will those reference numbers be tracked? The registrar has those. Are they going to be placed on CPIC?

[Paula Clarke]

No.

[Glen Motz, Conservative, Medicine Hat—Cardston—Warner, AB]

They won't be on CPIC, so the registrar will have them in a registry. That's the only way they're going to be kept.

[Rob O'Reilly]

The Canadian firearms information system, CFIS, is the management system used by the Canadian firearms program to manage all aspects of the licensing and registration regime. There would be a segregated database within the CFIS created to—

[Glen Motz, Conservative, Medicine Hat—Cardston—Warner, AB]

—which is a registry. The registrar will keep a list of reference numbers of all firearms transfers between someone who is buying a firearm—whether it be from a gun shop or if I were buying Mr. Calkins' gun. As long as I can verify that he has a PAL and I have a PAL and we get a reference number, that's going to be registered as a transaction that's occurred between Mr. Calkins and me. Is that correct?

[Rob O'Reilly]

When an individual calls the program, it isn't necessarily specifically in relation to a transfer but rather the verification of a licence associated with the transfer, so what we are recording is the reference number attached to the licence verification. There is no link between the reference number and any firearm, because there are no questions being asked in relation to any firearms.

[Glen Motz, Conservative, Medicine Hat—Cardston—Warner, AB]

I appreciate that, but you're still keeping a registry of the fact that certain individuals have transferred firearms back and forth. That's what the reference number is, and the backgrounder and the technical briefing we had explained that as well.

In closing I have one more quick question—

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

It's going to have to be exceedingly brief.

[Glen Motz, Conservative, Medicine Hat—Cardston—Warner, AB]

We talked about background checks. What will the threshold be? Who is going to determine that threshold when a past event, whether it be mental health—you talked about somebody who might have some tendencies to harm even themselves. Who makes the decision? What sort of things declassify, disable, or disqualify someone from having a firearm or owning one or being able to hunt with one at any point? How is that going to look if it happened 30 years ago?

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

That's not an exceedingly brief question. It's a good question, and you're going to have to work in the answer somehow.

Ms. Damoff.

[Pam Damoff, Liberal, Oakville North—Burlington, ON]

Thank you, Chair.

I thank the officials for staying with us for another hour.

I have been doing some research on this bill and on firearms in general. The presence or absence of a gun in a household remains the single most determinant factor for lethality in every case of domestic violence. Another stat is that access to a firearm is one of the top five risks that an abused woman will be killed. I'm wondering if you have heard of any organizations that deal with domestic or intimate partner violence that are not supporting this bill.

[Randall Koops]

I'm sorry, we haven't had those discussions with stakeholders, at least at the officials level.

[Pam Damoff, Liberal, Oakville North—Burlington, ON]

The ones I have spoken to are on the other end of the spectrum and feel we haven't gone far enough.

On the legislation itself, my understanding is that—and the minister touched on this—two or three years ago the split between domestic firearms and firearms that have come from outside Canada was about 70 to 30. About two to three years ago that started to change. Toronto Police say that 65% to 70% of the firearms that are used in crime are domestic. Most have started out as legal firearms but, through theft or illegal diversion, they are finding their way into gangs and crime.

I'm wondering if you can let us know if this legislation will assist police in trying to keep down those numbers of firearms that are finding their way into the hands of gangs and criminals.

[Randall Koops]

We assist police by providing them with an additional tracing tool they have in their tool box, the point-of-sale records. The other issue I would note is that the minister referred to the $100 million a year of investment in guns and gangs funding to be shared with provinces and with federal law enforcement organizations. One of the priority areas is better understanding intelligence about the flow of illegal firearms into Canada and better interdiction at the border by the police and by CBSA.

[Pam Damoff, Liberal, Oakville North—Burlington, ON]

The government is taking a—