Public Safety Committee on May 10th, 2018

[Michel Picard, Liberal, Montarville, QC]

Thank you.

I would now like to talk about customs and events related to irregular immigration, since this is a very popular topic.

According to messages we hear from here and there, from media or political organizations, it seems that this summer we will be facing as big a challenge as we did last year and that we will have the same problems. I think we can draw a number of lessons from what we went through last year.

What did you learn from last year's experience to help you adapt your work methods at the border this year? Not only must you show the same efficiency and give Canadians the same assurance regarding security at the border, but we have to see that your approach has evolved. You have to be able to meet people who arrive at the border and process their files. Is that how you see things?

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

Are you directing the question to Mr. Ossowski?

[Michel Picard, Liberal, Montarville, QC]

Yes, that would be a very good idea.

[John Ossowski]

Thank you for the question.

First of all, I would say that we learned a lot from last summer. It came up very quickly. Jacques, my vice-president of operations, remembers August 9 very well, when 470 people showed up. We've done a lot with our colleagues in the RCMP, Immigration, and Public Safety to work on our contingency planning for the summer. We are expecting about the same volume. It could be more, although it's a bit of a black art to predict what might happen. That has led us to look at the processes in terms of making sure we're as efficient and as effective as possible.

I want to assure the committee members that no one leaves a port of entry until we're satisfied that they do not pose a risk. All the criminality checks are done, and no one leaves until we're satisfied that there is no risk to the public. If there is something we cannot resolve over a short period of time, there might be a detention involved until we resolve that, but no one leaves the port of entry until those issues are resolved to our satisfaction.

[Michel Picard, Liberal, Montarville, QC]

The only message about pressure on human resources comes from the same source, that is to say human resources and officials.

Could you give us some perspective on the pressure that border service officers are feeling, and tell us whether the constant and repeated demands to increase financial and human resources reflect such an urgent need that the safety of Canadians is being jeopardized? And does this lead to poor management of the people who arrive at the border?

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

Answer very briefly, please.

[John Ossowski]

Thank you for the question.

Last year, one of the things we did very effectively was to rotate people in and out on four-week to six-week assignments, so we were able to maintain our pace in other areas. Quite frankly, if you go there and talk to my officers, you'll see that they've enjoyed the change of pace and the experience. It's something unusual for some of them from the smaller ports of entry, who might not have been involved in this kind of work, and so they're learning new skills. That said, it is always a strain in terms of the logistics of moving people around and making sure that I have capacity where I need it at any given point in time.

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

Thank you, Mr. Picard.

Mr. Paul-Hus, you have the floor for seven minutes.

[Pierre Paul-Hus, Conservative, Charlesbourg—Haute-Saint-Charles, QC]

I am going to continue in the same vein as my colleague Mr. Picard.

When migrants are released and head for the Montreal region, for instance, or elsewhere in Quebec, is it always the RCMP that does the follow-up on these migrants, or is it the responsibility of the Sûreté du Québec?

It can happen that a person who has been authorized to live in Montreal does not show up for the interview with the immigration officer who has convened them. We know that currently, 10% to 12% of people do not show up for the second interview. You could say that they've been lost in the wilderness. In that case, does the Sûreté du Québec or the RCMP have the mandate to find them again?

[John Ossowski]

I can take that.

As I mentioned, no one with any security issues is released. The process is that once they're released, they go further and their eligibility is determined in terms of their refugee status, ultimately ending up in a hearing before an Immigration and Refugee Board member. It's our responsibility to make sure that they show up for that hearing. We work with IRB in terms of the security screening process and the timing of that hearing, and make sure that they show up for that. If they don't show up, then we're in contact with them. If they still don't show up—there may be legitimate reasons in terms of scheduling conflicts or something—then we would start to enforce a remove order.

[Pierre Paul-Hus, Conservative, Charlesbourg—Haute-Saint-Charles, QC]

Can you confirm that last year, at least 10% of refugees requesting asylum did not attend their second interview and we have no idea where they are in Canada?

[John Ossowski]

I think we do. I'm confident that we have good fidelity about where they are.

[Pierre Paul-Hus, Conservative, Charlesbourg—Haute-Saint-Charles, QC]

You are lucky if you know where the people who did not come to the interviews are located.

I have another peace of information I would like you to confirm.

I am told that when it is confirmed that people have a criminal past, or if you have suspicions about them, they are incarcerated. Last year, there were some deaths among some of the asylum seekers who were detained. I have been told that the government is exerting pressure to release as many of these people as possible in order to avoid mortality in prison.

Can you confirm that this type of pressure is actually being brought to bear?

[John Ossowski]

I can give you some statistics, in terms of criminality, from last year. As you are aware, in terms of asylum seekers between ports of entry, we had 20,593 for the calendar year. In that same time frame, we had 104 cases where there was some criminality. The numbers are very low. Until we resolve that criminality, no one leaves the port of entry.

[Pierre Paul-Hus, Conservative, Charlesbourg—Haute-Saint-Charles, QC]

My next question is for the Commissioner of the RCMP.

At our meeting last Monday, you said that the RCMP was ready for the legalization of marijuana. However, as I mentioned in one of my questions to the minister earlier, Bill C-46 will not have been passed. How then can you confirm that the RCMP has everything it needs to monitor citizens?

[Commr Brenda Lucki]

As I mentioned earlier this week, we're in the process of increasing the capacity and training for drug recognition experts. We have approximately 10 or 12 courses scheduled for this fiscal year, and that's just the RCMP. There are several other police forces that are increasing their capacity as well.

[Pierre Paul-Hus, Conservative, Charlesbourg—Haute-Saint-Charles, QC]

Last year, when we were studying cannabis in the House of Commons, this was a major concern expressed by the Canadian Association of Chiefs of Police. Even the RCMP was saying at that time that it could not be ready for July 2018.

The government is currently exerting a lot of pressure. The bill may only pass in September, finally. Last Monday, you said that you were ready, but you are doing training and we know that it takes time to train people in detection.

If the bill legalizing marijuana comes into effect on September 1, will the members of the RCMP be in a position to enforce it?

[Commr Brenda Lucki]

Yes, currently we have 200 drug recognition experts in the RCMP alone. I'm not sure about the total number across Canada within the municipal police forces. Obviously, in the areas where we are adjacent to those municipal police forces, we work together and share those resources. They're strategically placed throughout the country. The increase in capacity is to ensure that our ability will be even greater than it is now, because, as the minister said, it's not a new problem.

[Pierre Paul-Hus, Conservative, Charlesbourg—Haute-Saint-Charles, QC]

On the topic of detection, a project was set up last year, if I remember correctly; it was the Shiprider project, a collaboration between the United States and Canada to intercept contraband on the water. I know that you are working on a similar project, known as “Landrider”, for contraband on land.

In the case of illegal migrants, are there any discussions that could lead to a collaboration with the Americans on American territory?

Last week, I went to Roxham Road, and I saw that we could post a police officer on the American side to tell people that they can't come in to Canada in this way. In that way, people would no longer reach the entry point.

Is that the type of discussion we could have? Is there a program to prevent people from crossing the border illegally?

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

Please answer in less than a minute.

[Malcolm Brown, Deputy Minister, Department of Public Safety and Emergency Preparedness]

There are constant conversations going on between Canadian and American officials about the whole issue of migrant movement. Members of Mr. Ossowski's team are talking to their American counterparts. Law enforcement is talking all the time. In the context of a specific model like Shiprider, I think that's getting ahead of ourselves. I also think there has to be a recognition that there are questions about the movement of these people in the U.S. that are up to U.S. officials to resolve.

[The Chair, Liberal, John McKay]

Thank you, Mr. Brown.

Thank you, Mr. Paul-Hus.

There is no representative of the NDP. Normally, I would take the rule of “use it or lose it”, but in this case, because it is an unusual day, I am going to go directly to Ms. Damoff and reserve for Mr. Davies, or whoever the NDP representative is, over the course of the next few minutes.

Ms. Damoff, you have seven minutes, please.

[Pam Damoff, Liberal, Oakville North—Burlington, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Ms. Kelly, the departmental plan for the Office of the Correctional Investigator indicated that a GBA+ was done. Was that analysis done on corrections or on that office?

[Anne Kelly]

I don't know.

[Pam Damoff, Liberal, Oakville North—Burlington, ON]

Okay. Regardless, I'm wondering if we could get a copy of whatever analysis was done.

One of the concerns I have is this. I visited the Edmonton Institution for Women, and the women there are being trained to sew and do nails. I also visited Pê Sâkâstêw, which is for men, and they are learning to frame houses and become carpenters. It seems that an analysis should be done on the training programs for men versus women. To get a sewing job versus framing a house is putting women at a disadvantage when they get out of corrections.

I was wondering if you have looked at the training programs. If not, could you?