Evidence of meeting #116 for Public Safety and National Security in the 42nd Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was firearm.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Alan Drummond  Canadian Association of Emergency Physicians
Atul Kapur  Canadian Association of Emergency Physicians
Mario Harel  President, Director, Gatineau Police Service, Canadian Association of Chiefs of Police
Solomon Friedman  Criminal Defence Counsel, Criminal Lawyers' Association
Fady Mansour  Criminal Defence Counsel, Criminal Lawyers' Association
Gary Mauser  Professor Emeritus, As an Individual
Gordon Sneddon  Organized Crime Enforcement, Toronto Police Service, Canadian Association of Chiefs of Police

1 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal John McKay

I don't think that's a point of order.

Mr. Dubé, you have five minutes.

1 p.m.

NDP

Matthew Dubé NDP Beloeil—Chambly, QC

Thanks very much.

I do have other questions, but I have a question for Mr. Friedman about the conversation that just happened.

At the end of the day, Parliament is the one responsible for the definitions and the RCMP is operating off that. This seems different from the RCMP making the law. They're working with definitions that come under the purview of Parliament, correct?

1 p.m.

Criminal Defence Counsel, Criminal Lawyers' Association

Solomon Friedman

Let me give you an example of how the RCMP has recently done that. In Canada—

1 p.m.

NDP

Matthew Dubé NDP Beloeil—Chambly, QC

I'm just asking. Parliament determines the definitions through—

1 p.m.

Criminal Defence Counsel, Criminal Lawyers' Association

Solomon Friedman

In theory, that's exactly how it should work, but in practice, it doesn't work that way. When the RCMP issues a bulletin with their.... Remember, it's nothing more than a legal opinion at this point. With their legal opinion, it has the force of law. In other words, individuals are arrested for it and they can be convicted and prosecuted. The Canada Border Services Agency, if they take that decision and disseminate it to all border crossings, will charge individuals with attempting to import what are now prohibited firearms but yesterday were non-restricted firearms, or sometimes even non-firearms at all.

I agree in theory that's how it should work, but that's not how it works and Parliamentary oversight is the only check on that power. For example, when the Swiss Arms or the CZ858 was classified, Parliament was able to say, “There's a problem here. There's a fundamental unfairness, and we're going to grant an amnesty.” That can't happen anymore under Bill C-71.

1 p.m.

NDP

Matthew Dubé NDP Beloeil—Chambly, QC

Again, the deeming provisions, the grandfathering in the bill, exist already and will remain unchanged. Wouldn't that same political incentive to go back on whatever decision the RCMP has made then create the same type of incentive for cabinet to deem?

1 p.m.

Criminal Defence Counsel, Criminal Lawyers' Association

Solomon Friedman

I'll say two things about the grandfathering provisions.

Number one, just grandfathering a firearm doesn't save what is ultimately a stripping of property rights from individuals. It renders the firearm non-transferable and essentially worthless. Particularly and often, many of the private firearms in Canada can't even be taken out of one's house to shoot on the shooting range. You say grandfather as if the status quo continues. It does not.

Second, and maybe it's because I'm a skeptical criminal lawyer, but I never trust when politicians say, “Don't worry, we're going to have the discretion to make this situation okay if we so deem.”

1 p.m.

NDP

Matthew Dubé NDP Beloeil—Chambly, QC

Isn't that the same thing as cabinet giving, with the RCMP classification, what you just said?

1 p.m.

Criminal Defence Counsel, Criminal Lawyers' Association

Solomon Friedman

Yes, but this puts the cart before the horse. It allows for the classification decision to go first in the hands of the RCMP. The very best Parliament can do under Bill C-71 is not declare it non-restrictive, not disagree with it, but give you permission to continue to be a criminal via grandfathering. That's not an acceptable answer. Amnesties are not for law-abiding citizens. We shouldn't have a system where the very best the government could do to redress an issue with the RCMP classification is to grant an amnesty.

1 p.m.

NDP

Matthew Dubé NDP Beloeil—Chambly, QC

Thank you for your answer.

Mr. Harel, I have a question for you. I don't know whether you can talk about the system of records kept by vendors before 1995, I think, and about how that helped police forces in Canada.

1 p.m.

President, Director, Gatineau Police Service, Canadian Association of Chiefs of Police

Mario Harel

You are talking about green books, unless I am mistaken.

1 p.m.

NDP

Matthew Dubé NDP Beloeil—Chambly, QC

Yes, exactly.

1 p.m.

President, Director, Gatineau Police Service, Canadian Association of Chiefs of Police

Mario Harel

In the context of monitoring firearm sales, those books helped ensure the ability to find the buyer of a firearm and check whether that firearm was sold to someone who was legally entitled to own it. As my colleague was saying, that was the starting point of any investigation when a firearm was used to commit a crime and its source had to be found.

1:05 p.m.

NDP

Matthew Dubé NDP Beloeil—Chambly, QC

Was there a difference between the way those records were used and the way police used the registry?

1:05 p.m.

President, Director, Gatineau Police Service, Canadian Association of Chiefs of Police

Mario Harel

Absolutely, the registry gave instant access to the list of all firearms in Canada at the time, but before it existed, every vendor had to keep records, and we had to locate the firearm's owner, starting with the manufacturer and then moving on to the vendor. Green books are pretty different from the registry.

1:05 p.m.

NDP

Matthew Dubé NDP Beloeil—Chambly, QC

In 2012, when the government of the day eliminated the registry, many people argued in favour of bringing back what was there before—those records. Do you agree with them?

1:05 p.m.

President, Director, Gatineau Police Service, Canadian Association of Chiefs of Police

Mario Harel

There's no doubt that, since the firearm registry was abolished, we have been unaware of the firearms that are sold. So our investigations are currently much more difficult.

1:05 p.m.

NDP

Matthew Dubé NDP Beloeil—Chambly, QC

Thank you.

1:05 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal John McKay

Thank you, Mr. Dubé.

Ms. Dabrusin, you have five minutes.

The only person who hasn't asked a question is Mr. Fragiskatos. So, after Mr. Dabrusin, Mr. Fragiskatos, and assuming there's still time left, and assuming there's still opportunity, we can probably go on for another 10 to 15 minutes after that, so please indicate to the clerk who wants to speak.

Ms. Dabrusin, you have five minutes, and then Mr. Fragiskatos, you will have five minutes.

May 29th, 2018 / 1:05 p.m.

Liberal

Julie Dabrusin Liberal Toronto—Danforth, ON

Thank you.

Thank you to all of you.

Mr. Sneddon and Monsieur Harel, I have a letter here that was written by Mayor John Tory to Minister Goodale. In it he says:

“What's particularly troubling to me is cases where certain licensed gun owners are able to amass small arsenals of handguns and that there are no red flags”

—despite these purchases being registered on the Canadian Firearms Registry—

“I was further shocked to learn that there is no limit on the number of firearms any one licensed gun owner can purchase and possess.”

I was wondering if you could comment on that and whether you have any suggestions as how there could be red flags, or if there's a necessity for red flags.

1:05 p.m.

Supt Gordon Sneddon

That's been the subject of discussion with the Canadian firearms program since late 2012. A number of measures have been put in place with a view to identifying at an early stage someone who may be doing that type of thing, who may be misusing their licence to purchase firearms to divert to the criminal market.

1:05 p.m.

Liberal

Julie Dabrusin Liberal Toronto—Danforth, ON

The reason I ask is that right now we're evaluating the current legislation and looking at how we can deal with these issues. This is an opportunity for you, if you have suggestions as to what we could put in place, so we can take them into account. Some of it may be procedural, some of it may be within this legislation.

1:05 p.m.

Supt Gordon Sneddon

Those suggestions would be wide-ranging. My focus has been on Bill C-71, and Bill C-71 doesn't enter into that particular area in any great way.

1:05 p.m.

Liberal

Julie Dabrusin Liberal Toronto—Danforth, ON

It does require that the businesses record purchases, so there is that piece. What I'm trying to get at is, is there anything in that, or is there anything else that you would want to see that would be able to help us to respond to that issue? This is your chance, but you only have three minutes.

1:05 p.m.

President, Director, Gatineau Police Service, Canadian Association of Chiefs of Police

Mario Harel

We have to go back to centralize all the transactions of firearms.

We have to keep track of used firearms sold legally by legitimate owners to someone authorized to purchase them. How will we be able to track those transactions? We would need a regulatory requirement for all that information to be kept up to date by the Canadian Firearms Program so that people who purchase firearms in large quantities can be identified.